I guess something I'll mention is that one thing I found interesting about Ending 1 of the base game (in spite of everything else) was the fact that Damien had repressed anger towards Olivia. This got me thinking that Cavemanon sort of made him a low-key Naomi trying to get the human to fix the problem girl. While that's interesting, he himself doesn't grow as a character from this. In Ending 4, his own issues with Olivia just become a self-correcting problem.

That's why I wrote him the way I did in endings 2-B and 2-C of my mod. His own motivations for wanting to help Olivia are selfish. Not that that is inherently wrong in of itself, he just wants her to stop making his home life less awkward and sees Inco as a means to that end.

Here is my two cents. I liked the mod and the writing, some scenes were pretty well-written, especially the rain scene. I would like to see more of your works. People caring about Olivia's feelings more than Inco's is a nice touch. But I don't think this is how things would go.

Summer's End party pretty much shows that Olivia, despite feeling alone and guilty, is quite good at acting non-chalant and hide her inner feelings (obviously not around Inco). I think this is exactly what would happen at first, where Olivia is full of ''I deserve this'' and perhaps a little ''I don't need him anyways'' mindset and tries to act like it does not bother her that much. I think she would distance herself from Inco like how she distances herself from the Payne's under the guise of ''I am just bothering them''.

So, in such alternate story, I see her trying to continue her act while desperation and sorrow slowly sips through the cracks, and then finally breaking apart to crawl back to Inco. Because unlike the Payne's, Inco does not share a family bond with her, and thus might actually be gone from her life forever.

Just like E2, where Inco fails to get over her and begs her to take him back.

Another thing I find to be out of character is her trying to use her feminine viles, especially after seeing how it back-fired when she tried the same during the rain scene. I see that kind of approach happening only after they made up.

Olivia develops a crush early game, but she never owns it up and hides it (poorly). Even when Inco pretty much blurts out that he wants to get closer, she still refuses to tell him her feelings and instead forces out a confession out of him to make sure that he likes her.

This is most likely because she is afraid of rejection and making things awkward between the two, losing what they have.

Olivia getting bold and giving obvious hints (with intention, she always sucked at hiding her feelings) when Inco has yet to show any signs of liking her is something I see happening only if she is getting desperate/threatened. But her giving such hints when Inco is angry at her is just something I don't see happening (especially when she knows that it did not work).

I also found the last part where Olivia goes ''imagine if you manipulated me or something lol'' a bit weird.

But again, just my two cents.

@Mister Dude
I think Damien's motives differ dramatically from Naomi's, and this difference makes me judge his character as being far from selfish. Naomi just wanted to get Fang off of her hair, so Naser could allocate more of his time and energy to her, which is a bad type of selfishness and lack of empathy. Damien's actions are rooted in love and affection for Olivia, whom he treats like a biological sibling. Their relationship is as old as them, and from the descriptions of their past experiences (i.e. arcade trips) they seemed to get along very well. So when Olivia started isolating herself, he took the burden of putting the always-happy facade to try to help her, because he didn't want Olivia to lose her positive part of herself (which is also explicitly stated after bullying incident in the game). The very act is in my opinion an opposite of being selfish. it is ultimately very taxing to him and he snaps in E1. But I don't think one would put that much effort just to ultimately say "finally the family life will be much less awkward". The happy attitude was one of the tools of Damien's repertoire, another one being attempts to find friends for Olivia (Inco wasn't first). I didn't personally perceive this as trying to offset the problem to someone else, as Damien is being equally invested throughout the game to 'make Olivia happy again', it is more an act of blind desperation that came from the shadows of his failures to do so by himself as her (not)brother.

I might not like mia that much. both this with more deapth and original that just ♥♥♥♥♥♥. but we have to agree she's the core of all situations and all problems. even damien cannot comprehand the ♥♥♥♥♥♥ AURA this ♥♥♥♥♥ has. AURA that makes everyone wanna kill themselv. i ♥♥♥♥♥♥ hate mia. the only good thing about her that she literally olivia in terms of looks but able to walk. but i rather to live with disabled gator my entire ♥♥♥♥♥♥ life than being 5 minutes near mia. if you like mia in any way. then please seek nearby medical and mental help. you might as well need to beated several times to get your brain fixed.
I am feel bad for ben solly because he has to deal with Mia all his ♥♥♥♥♥♥ time, even during lunch.
At least naomi or fang brother (i forgot his name, ♥♥♥♥) were less toxic if you think about it. and trish wasn't that ♥♥♥♥♥♥ ♥♥♥♥♥ that literally deserved to be shot at at spot like its some hunt sport of all places that ST. hamford can be.

引用自 DönerKrieg：

Here is my two cents. I liked the mod and the writing, some scenes were pretty well-written, especially the rain scene. I would like to see more of your works. People caring about Olivia's feelings more than Inco's is a nice touch. But I don't think this is how things would go.

Summer's End party pretty much shows that Olivia, despite feeling alone and guilty, is quite good at acting non-chalant and hide her inner feelings (obviously not around Inco). I think this is exactly what would happen at first, where Olivia is full of ''I deserve this'' and perhaps a little ''I don't need him anyways'' mindset and tries to act like it does not bother her that much. I think she would distance herself from Inco like how she distances herself from the Payne's under the guise of ''I am just bothering them''.

So, in such alternate story, I see her trying to continue her act while desperation and sorrow slowly sips through the cracks, and then finally breaking apart to crawl back to Inco. Because unlike the Payne's, Inco does not share a family bond with her, and thus might actually be gone from her life forever.

Just like E2, where Inco fails to get over her and begs her to take him back.

Another thing I find to be out of character is her trying to use her feminine viles, especially after seeing how it back-fired when she tried the same during the rain scene. I see that kind of approach happening only after they made up.

Olivia develops a crush early game, but she never owns it up and hides it (poorly). Even when Inco pretty much blurts out that he wants to get closer, she still refuses to tell him her feelings and instead forces out a confession out of him to make sure that he likes her.

This is most likely because she is afraid of rejection and making things awkward between the two, losing what they have.

Olivia getting bold and giving obvious hints (with intention, she always sucked at hiding her feelings) when Inco has yet to show any signs of liking her is something I see happening only if she is getting desperate/threatened. But her giving such hints when Inco is angry at her is just something I don't see happening (especially when she knows that it did not work).

I also found the last part where Olivia goes ''imagine if you manipulated me or something lol'' a bit weird.

But again, just my two cents.

>I think that's a pretty fair assessment of how Olivia would likely react to Inco walking out of her life. However, for the sake of expediency, it would've made the initial story drag on too much to not have her immediately enter a depressive state and try to "win back" Inco as it were. Also, Damien and Liz would've still noticed something was off with the two of them. My thought process was to get the narrative momentum going ASAP. Her attitude during the following five days are essentially her speedrunning the five stages of acceptance. Storytelling logistics often demand expediting things of this nature to not make a story take forever to get to the meat of the plot.

>I didn't want to write Olivia begging Inco to take her back though (with the exception of Ending 1-B after their fight). Accepting her apologies, sure. But begging to be taken back, no. Even with how down she is, it would've felt too out of character for her to outright beg (again, 1-B). She's proud to a fault, which is the source of her shame (Uncle Iroh). But I think she knows she can at least coax pity out of pity by looking and acting pathetic. Inco refusing to react to her doing that forces her to accept personal agency.

>I don't think Olivia was trying to use feminine wiles during the rain scene, I think she just wanted pity points. I was trying to imply that her putting on more makeup for Inco was Liz's idea.

>So yeah, fair criticisms, but taking creative liberties is part of the fun. I still tried to keep both as in character as possible and just wanted to put Olivia into a position where she was desperate to keep Inco once she realized fully not only what she had done, but what he meant to her.

>The whole hypothetical scenario she goes into was something I meant to serve as kind of a "what if you were Ending 1 Inco," since I think Ending 1 Inco is (and maybe was) the type of person to do exactly that.

引用自 Sebek Fereh Ra：

@Mister Dude
I think Damien's motives differ dramatically from Naomi's, and this difference makes me judge his character as being far from selfish. Naomi just wanted to get Fang off of her hair, so Naser could allocate more of his time and energy to her, which is a bad type of selfishness and lack of empathy. Damien's actions are rooted in love and affection for Olivia, whom he treats like a biological sibling. Their relationship is as old as them, and from the descriptions of their past experiences (i.e. arcade trips) they seemed to get along very well. So when Olivia started isolating herself, he took the burden of putting the always-happy facade to try to help her, because he didn't want Olivia to lose her positive part of herself (which is also explicitly stated after bullying incident in the game). The very act is in my opinion an opposite of being selfish. it is ultimately very taxing to him and he snaps in E1. But I don't think one would put that much effort just to ultimately say "finally the family life will be much less awkward". The happy attitude was one of the tools of Damien's repertoire, another one being attempts to find friends for Olivia (Inco wasn't first). I didn't personally perceive this as trying to offset the problem to someone else, as Damien is being equally invested throughout the game to 'make Olivia happy again', it is more an act of blind desperation that came from the shadows of his failures to do so by himself as her (not)brother.

Well, I wasn't trying to say Damien was exactly like Naomi, but that he was low-key being like her in wanting Inco to fix Olivia. His line in Ending 1 where he says "you brought her out of her shell just to shove her back in" made it clear he was furious with Inco for what he had done. Even if he's justified, it still feels similar to Naomi chewing out Anon.

So what I was going for was to collapse Naser and Naomi's roles into one character, which I think is pretty much what Damien ultimately is, whether Cavemanon intended it or not.

Damien still cares for Olivia on a personal level, but she's trying his patience. That much is clear when he explodes on her in Ending 1. The whole gist of the point I was making is that unconditional love doesn't exist. Anyone's love can be tested to the breaking point, and Olivia realizes this in the end.

First and foremost what annoyed me the most was weird music that put an odd pace during some dialogues and how sudden and loud outbursts of tempo it had. I do not know any of those tracks that you used as an extra asset there but, well they do not match the pace of story i.e. The worst one so far was the one you used during the school closet scene. The rest that are smooth and slow are okayish but i still prefer the original ost to them. But those tracks that want (I at least assume) express tension and storm of emotions are really anticlimactic.

Other issue i had was how Inco transformed his attitude on spot in comparison how he was in base game (I get it is a fan mod but wow that much of personality change is throwing off) I especially mean how erratic he acts when he is alone. I could probably say that you took weird turns regarding personalities of other characters too but i should assume it was specifically chosen for the story.

Another possibly excusable thing, cause we all like it different is humor/jokes. I would probably guess it is greentext/4chan type of comedy which i do not appreciate (That was the main point for which at first i almost disliked Snoot Game until it got its pace right). But well i can not complain about since some might love it other hate it.

Now regarding the story. First and the wildest thing i do not get the dream sequences especially the Ben one when he basically makes the Machiavellian rant about power and control (i do not see any purpose of this dream it feels to edgy and cringe for the tone you set). But i would assume it is pavement for 2-B ending which literally makes Naomi out of Inco. You mentioned there you had few other ideas regarding this ending and tbh a much darker turn would benefit it, i for once love stories that do not always end with gold and glitter (That why i love the concept of 4 endings in Snoot and Wani). Same goes for 2-C ending which i had hoped they would split up but remain on speaking terms otherwise i just feel like it a different more developed flavor of 1-A/B ending.

For suggestions which i would see here, are different takes on current endings which i mentioned above. An interesting depressing story is still good and can be peak no matter how dark it is (it is the concept that counts imo). Secondly i think it should be an option to actually make her confess to principal and see how it goes it could be an interesting story concept (for which i even have some ideas in mind).

In conclusion i believe for a first timer in writing it was exceptionally good, especially when it comes to that plot divergence line. I too believe that Cavemanon made the game too light in regarding how you treat Olivia (This is why to this point i prefer Snoot Game to Wani since it had better developed story). Now i hope my rambling is comprehensible enough as i am not an English speaking native. But these the things i saw during gameplay so far. I might have missed some nitty gritty details but well i got into playing this mod pretty late in the night and i did not assume one could write something so long (so far i have only seen many short ones on workshop). Therefore my point i was a bit sleepy and exhausted during last hour of reading it so sorry for that.

引用自 Hermann：

First and foremost what annoyed me the most was weird music that put an odd pace during some dialogues and how sudden and loud outbursts of tempo it had. I do not know any of those tracks that you used as an extra asset there but, well they do not match the pace of story i.e. The worst one so far was the one you used during the school closet scene. The rest that are smooth and slow are okayish but i still prefer the original ost to them. But those tracks that want (I at least assume) express tension and storm of emotions are really anticlimactic.


In conclusion i believe for a first timer in writing it was exceptionally good, especially when it comes to that plot divergence line. I too believe that Cavemanon made the game too light in regarding how you treat Olivia (This is why to this point i prefer Snoot Game to Wani since it had better developed story). Now i hope my rambling is comprehensible enough as i am not an English speaking native. But these the things i saw during gameplay so far. I might have missed some nitty gritty details but well i got into playing this mod pretty late in the night and i did not assume one could write something so long (so far i have only seen many short ones on workshop). Therefore my point i was a bit sleepy and exhausted during last hour of reading it so sorry for that.

>Thanks for the well thought out response. When you talk about the music in the closet scene, I assume you mean Ending 2-A. That's the weakest of the endings I wrote, and I was planning on changing the music and rewriting that entire part anyway. As for the current tracks, I'll consider changing them. I admit Ending 2-A seemed better in my head then when I actually made it and saw it play out, which is why I lost interest in it and focused more on the other two endings.

>As for Inco's personality, I was trying to go for Inco having an internal struggle where it's like his Ending 1 self fighting his Ending 3/4 self, since I don't think Inco did his characterization the attention it needed. I don't think their writing was bad, but he came across to me as someone with more potential to be unstable than he was. Not getting enough attention from one's parents is usually the starting point for narcissism.

>As for the humor, I admit I am that type of edge-posting personality, which is why I relate more to Anon than Inco. Cavemanon themselves are, too; they simply toned it way the hell down with Wani. I appreciate you not letting it effect your overall judgement too much though and I understand if that's not your type of humor.

>Yes, I did have ideas for an Ending 1 type of ending where it gets dark, but I wasn't having fun writing it, and I was doing this mainly for fun, not to give myself anxiety. I get what the four ending format is supposed to be for in regards to showing consequences, but I don't yet know how to implement a point based system, and that would've been very ambitious. Ultimately, what I was trying to go for was if Inco became manipulative like Ben and Mia, but while being strong-minded enough to not be manipulated by them.

It was always a plot point in the base game that Inco can be influenced by Ben for worse, and we see that play out in Ending 1, only Inco still comes off as weak-minded and short-sighted. The angle I was going for was essentially Inco being strong-minded enough to be the mastermind, but still weak in spirit enough to feel the need to do that in the first place. Sort of a pseudo-Ending 3 type of Inco, whom I see as having been strong-minded, but still spiritually weak, with a desire to control Olivia (see my analysis in the guides section for that).

Overall, I'm happy with Ending 2-B and have no plans to change it or the Ben dream sequence.

>I did consider an ending in which Olivia does confess to the principal, but only after she's so guilt-ridden from Inco's constant abuse of her. Then he leaves St. Hammond and she commits sedoku shortly after. Merely thinking about writing that was making me miserable, so I went in a different direction with the whole "all possibilities lead back to Inco and Olivia" following a status-quo is God type of set up. I can understand if you thought I wasn't going far enough with the plot divergence, but I still wanted to keep it relatively simple so it could theoretically fit into the main game's story.

>Your English is fine, and even better than most native English speakers whose own English has devolved into TikTok gibberish lately. I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Cavemanon were too soft on Olivia. I, too, think Snoot had better writing overall, but I guess this is due to the previous Wani team messing up Wani so bad. The former head writer Workanon is quoted by Cavemanon as having botched the story very badly, so I guess they were working with what they had. It's still a good story regardless, but is still flawed.

Thanks for the response.

Fun is all that matters in the end so i won't thread any more on that. But never heard they had whole head writer replaced in the development. It all makes sense with all the under cooked side plots and especially lack of extra content (just like you had in snoot). They won my heart by music, original idea and animations alone (they broke my heart both times) but everything was really mid. And when i think about it i would much more prefer persevering through odd jokes just like in Snoot rather than dubious at best plot choices in Wani. And yeah Anon is way more interesting character but still he lacks something (saw some good ideas from 4chan screenshots).

You clearly made Inco character deeper than in base game (which i know they made him a Tabula Rasa on purpuse but damn he can be so normie even to a fault sometimes) but i still believe you spiced him up a bit too much regarding the point in timeline but that is me rambling again and i already said that.

引用自 Hermann：

Fun is all that matters in the end so i won't thread any more on that. But never heard they had whole head writer replaced in the development. It all makes sense with all the under cooked side plots and especially lack of extra content (just like you had in snoot). They won my heart by music, original idea and animations alone (they broke my heart both times) but everything was really mid. And when i think about it i would much more prefer persevering through odd jokes just like in Snoot rather than dubious at best plot choices in Wani. And yeah Anon is way more interesting character but still he lacks something (saw some good ideas from 4chan screenshots).

You clearly made Inco character deeper than in base game (which i know they made him a Tabula Rasa on purpuse but damn he can be so normie even to a fault sometimes) but i still believe you spiced him up a bit too much regarding the point in timeline but that is me rambling again and i already said that.

Thanks for the encouragement and constructive criticism. And I'm glad you think I made Inco more interesting because that was my goal from the beginning.

As for the deets on the development of Wani, it's right here

https://cavemanon.xyz/mar-1-2024-hitpiece-response/

It's actually quite fascinating (and funny). Looking at this game's rocky development cycle, it's something of a miracle it got made at all. Some people even tried to derail it out of spite, and I honestly think Ending 1 Inco was Cavemanon's attempt at getting back at them as a kind of blunt social commentary.

引用自 Hermann：

Fun is all that matters in the end so i won't thread any more on that. .

Oh, and since I'm currently doing some edits and rewrites, what music tracks specifically did you have a problem with?

引用自 Mister Dude：

Some people even tried to derail it out of spite, and I honestly think Ending 1 Inco was Cavemanon's attempt at getting back at them as a kind of blunt social commentary.

What do you mean by that never heard that intrigue either. Elaborate if you can i am interested.

Also give me an hour i will tell you which ost didn't feel good with the pacing. Cant post screenshots here so i will try insert dialogues during which they occurred. Oh and also there are some read proofs to be done minor spelling mistakes and dialogues not matching the person speaking. But i suppose you know that already since it is a common and recurring problem in that matter.

引用自 Hermann：

引用自 Mister Dude：

Some people even tried to derail it out of spite, and I honestly think Ending 1 Inco was Cavemanon's attempt at getting back at them as a kind of blunt social commentary.

What do you mean by that never heard that intrigue either. Elaborate if you can i am interested.

Also give me an hour i will tell you which ost didn't feel good with the pacing. Cant post screenshots here so i will try insert dialogues during which they occurred. Oh and also there are some read proofs to be done minor spelling mistakes and dialogues not matching the person speaking. But i suppose you know that already since it is a common and recurring problem in that matter.

It's in the link I posted. It thoroughly covers the whole debacle.

And thanks for the help. As for spelling mistakes, I'm working on that now. Currently doing some edits while rewriting Ending 2-A. Already took out the music tracks and am using vanilla music.

First, I'd like to say that the concept is great, Inco having a bit more of a backbone or ego however you wanna call it is in a fact good characterization but that's also the biggest problem in the writing, the character writing is BAD, and do mean BAD, none of the characters feel like their canon counter parts whether is Mia suddenly becoming a suthern sex predator or any character being possessed by the ghost of expositions past and going on a rant about why Olivia is cringe and Inco is based, it just doesn't feel right so I'll just make a list of my problems with each one if I have them

-Inco, he went from the kind of guy who if possible would put a censor blip in real life so no one could ever say a swear word, to just Anon from snoot game and yes he does say something about Olivia's personality rubbing off on him but that kind of 180 turn on his character feels so jarring and it feels really artificial. And I get that a lot of people aren't happy with Inco as a character, I'm one of those people, but you have to understand that not everyone is a fatherless 4chan attention ♥♥♥♥♥ and hence Inco is easier to identify with for most people in general (And yes Anon is a better character than Inco).

-Olivia, from a girl with aspirations to a weak ass SIMP and I wouldn't be too bothered if she didn't take every opportunity she had to ♥♥♥♥ on herself and suck off Inco aside from that I don't have more problems with her

-Mia, suthern sex predator I feel like that explains itself, aside from that the ''Mia had a crush on inco/she's horny for him'' is so forced it could be called a starwars reference she mentions something about ''the elevator can't save you now'' which completely ♥♥♥♥♥ up the timeline since Iadakan is still alive well after this and that's the thing outside of classes she's interacted with Inco twice 1-When Ben told her to apologize. 2-The glitter bomb incident, and have her do a 180 and say ''she wants to ♥♥♥♥ him is straight up bad writing (Mianderthal writing)

Liz/Damien-They exist solely to suck off Inco's sense of self righteousness and I'd buy it from Damien since this mod seems to see him exclusively as his e1 edition (which I believe is dumb since e1 is supposed to be the ending in which every character gets to be on their absolute worse), but Liz is already a bare bones character most you can take from her is being a discount Naomi with the main difference being the lack of a stick up her ass but this isn't a good interpretation.

Ben/Lunara/Kiara-They barely exist, with Ben being the only one with more than a line of dialogue most of which was on a dream sequence and I get that the discussion about Ben's character is divided between people saying he's literally satan and people saying he's retarded but this feels wrong. My personal interpretation is that he is yes a bit envious ass towards Olivia on the main game but this interpretation feels like a statement more than a character, as for his appearance on e2-c, it's whatever feels a bit forced for him to rant about what he did, before saying I'm sorry, I do like the interpretation Inco and Olivia take from his relationship with Mia.

Iadakan-I like him, doesn't play either side, judges both of Inco and Olivia for what they did, overall? Based as all Iadakan interpretations are, there's also that one line of dialogue that cracked me up on e2-c its so out of character and funny that my nerdemoji ass couldn't be mad about it.

As for the endings: I've already said that Inco is not Inco he is Anon, both because of his reasoning to justify his actions, and his reasoning to regret those actions I'll make as clear as I can:
-Anon is a prick with a good heart capable of empathizing with other's emotions, that's why his journey is about getting over himself and learning respect others
-Inco is an emotionally retarded fella with basic knowledge of human interaction, his juorney is about understanding and empathizing with other's emotions
And with this in mind you can see why this endings are out off character for inco, who in the canon at least goes like this: when he takes a bad decition is because he can't tell is a bad decision, when he takes a good decision is because he understands why it's a good decision.

As for the endings themselves they all have the same problem I just explained if I had to point at the worst offender of this it would be 2-b where inco turns into devolves into naomi.

If I had to rate the mod overall a 5/10 good moments and a great plot but a LOT of things to fix up character wise. But I'm sure in the grand scheme of things this isn't all that bad for a first renpy proyect.

引用自 Mister Dude：

It's in the link I posted. It thoroughly covers the whole debacle.

And thanks for the help. As for spelling mistakes, I'm working on that now. Currently doing some edits while rewriting Ending 2-A. Already took out the music tracks and am using vanilla music.

So to be clear you do not need me pointing out anything anymore?