Sid Meier's Civilization V

Sid Meier's Civilization V

Scout's Progress
jackischaos 2014 年 1 月 30 日 下午 6:11
[Discussion] Another vision for the Scout-Class-Progression
Nothing bothered me, your vision of it is just different then what I thought I would do if I could make an explorer, Ranger, SF mod, that’s all. Your goal was to make that unit more important and a game changer, while keeping it expensive and balanced. From what I see I think it is awesome that you took your skills and idea and made it what you wanted it to be.

For me, I would want them to stay weak as is, not realy change the game, but follow an evolution throughout the ages.

I would completely remove the buff upgrades.

Once they Upgrade to explorer they would have increased sight/ movements.

Once they upgrade to ranger they lose the increased sight an movements (like the caravel
loses it when upgraded)

Rangers would arrive with same tech as the machine gun have 2 range, -100% against armored, -100% artillery. (With range upgradable to 3) they would be very close to the machine gun (60) strength, there bonus would be in the range, not the damage.

Here is where it would get interesting,

Special forces could not be build they can only be upgraded (you would need experienced soldiers) they would have an upgrade fee of 500, they would gain invisibility once upgraded and their range would stays the same as a ranger but get a small bonus in def (say 90).The strategy would not be to use them to attack /defend; but to disrupt/sabotage/spy during peace time. (you would not want to upgrade all your rangers), There movement would be reduced to 1, (can`t move fast if you want to be stealthy) they would be able to paradrop invisibly from friendly territory with no move once droped (don`t know if game can let you do that) they would be able to cross enemy lines without declaration of war or open border.

If enemy unit (mil or civ) get to one space beside SF they are detected, but as barbarians. And they stay visible until they leave the enemy territory, (long walk home at 1 mvmt) or they can stay and raise as much hell as they can until they die. (all planes/ would have -100% against SF) If SF get beside a city undetected, they can be sacrificed to destroyed production with 50% chance that civ detects who it was that did it with proper rights to declare war and get angry at the civ, (got to find a way to stop that science victory) They would also be able to pillage and move, and kill any civilian units in one shot, resulting in automatic detection removing there stealth ability until the y get out of enemy lines.

Their vision would be 3, but when fortified they would gain 5 or 6 the next turn until they move. A real life Observation Post  (you would set does up in remote enemy locations as to not be detected).

SF would have -25% fighting in their own territory ( you need allot of time and perfect drills and planning to do covert ops, when they are at home they are caught with their pants down)
Now how do you get the AI to use them like this, that’s my question?

Anyways, that was my vision of it, keep them weak, use them wisely, espionage and sabotage. Or as a normal marksmen that is less powerful than anything in the new world but more than just a stupid scout from the ancient era. Your Choice matters in the end, right :D
最后由 Bosparan 编辑于; 2014 年 1 月 31 日 上午 10:16
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Bosparan  [开发者] 2014 年 1 月 31 日 上午 10:09 
Interesting, you cetainly draw a clear picture of how you would prefer the scout units.

About the unit upgrade-path philosophy of your proposal: I disagree with completely altering a unit's nature twice within an upgrade path (Explorer -> Ranger, Ranger -> SF). In my opinion, a class upgrade ought to always feel good (that's what they call it upgrade for). During a game, I build specific kinds of units for a role they fulfill: Having a unit change its role by upgrading means I will loose an experienced that fulfilled a role I needed. Choosing not to upgrade it means it becomes obsolescent and will easily be overpowered as ages proceed.
Choosing which unit class to deploy - and lets face it: In your proposal, the only commonality Rangers and SF have is that you can upgrade one into the other - Is already part of the game and well established, I see no reason to make the class-upgrade system more confusing for no gain on this front.

Choice during promotions mattering is a completely different aspect. Promotions make your unit better, make it special to you (admit it: Loosing a Level 6+ SF hurts. It hurting means you were attached to it). If the choice you make here has more of a perceived impact, this effect is increased.
Depending on which promotion you chose, the scout-progression units will perform in their role better in certain aspects (Scouting for Exploration, Survivalism for battle-field recon and early barbarian whomping and Sniper for Guerillia) or under certain circumstances (Terrain Expert). Each promotion choice will significantly affect one of those aspects (or at least give the perception of it until you get out your calculater and do the math).
This is the kind of choice I wanted to introduce. In my opinion, most other promotion progression paths really aren't much of a choice and most promotions don't really alter the way handling the unit feels.

引用自 "jackischaos"
keep them weak, use them wisely, espionage and sabotage. Or as a normal marksmen that is less powerful than anything in the new world but more than just a stupid scout from the ancient era.
Even SF aren't all that powerful in purely militaristic terms: Their maximum ranged attack power - stacking every single boost they can get - is 72. Granted, with range 3 and 3 attacks that's quite a fair amount, but it really doesn't begin to compare to contemporary units (Even without a single promotion). The great utility and speed makes using them feel very good, but if you crunch the math you'll realize that building 3 XCOM Troopers will give you far more military power than 2 SFs (This would be the balance for production cost), far more 5 XCOM Troopers for 1 SF (That's the Upkeep balance).
Given that cost and balance of strength, I'd rather hope you use them wisely. I certainly try to.
最后由 Bosparan 编辑于; 2014 年 1 月 31 日 上午 10:13
jackischaos 2014 年 1 月 31 日 下午 2:54 
That`s why you're a modder and I am not.... those were just like my first untested unproven thoughts. I did not think about the fact that it would hurt to lose a level 6 ranger, too true. Obviously I am missing some of the logic of continuaty to the unit. However, I would not use the scout or explorer for attacks, so they would not level up much. But still you would want something more usefull for the late game. (not realy more millitarily powerfull)

Maybe the ranger should keep its vision, and later ugrade to an armoured Reconaissance vehicle with even greater vision, no stealth, or cross border walks, just awsome vision.

And the SF would be a completly new unit unlocked in later techs.

Or maybe I should just use your mod as is an I should STFU about it lol.

Quick question, How do you get your AI to use your mod appropriatly ? Or would you say all these types of mods are made more for human vs human?
最后由 jackischaos 编辑于; 2014 年 1 月 31 日 下午 4:21
Bosparan  [开发者] 2014 年 2 月 1 日 下午 12:05 
引用自 "jackischaos"
Or maybe I should just use your mod as is an I should STFU about it
I do not recommend just shutting up, when something keeps bugging you (though I do recommend using my mod ;) ). Sometimes people disagree, sometimes arguing helps. Feedback or other suggestions - even if I end up rejecting them - keeps me thinking, introduces new thought. Not speaking your mind is pretty much the only situation where I loose out (well, not counting trolling and flaming, but I'd never count someone amongst those for simply disagreeing with my vision or methods).

引用自 "jackischaos"
Quick question, How do you get your AI to use your mod appropriatly ?
I'm currently working on this, running many test games. Basically, AI handling buildings or units is handled by something the game calls "flavor"s. For example, the factory has a high "Production-Flavor", while the tank has a high "Offense-Flavor". It's like filling in a table, assigning numbers at the appropriate column.
As a modder, I can either assign flavors to units (easy to do), introduce new flavors (Far beyond my skills) or script individual behaviour-scripts (I might some day manage to do this, but don't hold your breath). The problem with the predefined flavors and the scout unit tiers, especially the Ranger and SF, is that they really don't have a "Saboteur" flavor. I gave them the recon flavor - and it's doing the recon part just fine. However this means that they will only use it for recon purposes, and only build them as necessity exists. That's working alright, but means they usually only use them sparingly in the end-game.
The problem arises when I try adding other flavors. Giving offense flavors turned out pretty bad (the AI kept building them exclusively, which meant it got utterly smashed by a few XCOM-Troopers), defense flavor worked out better, but it means the AI won't be using them as saboteurs either (and it messed with troop mix balance on the rear end in a bad way).

So ... currently I'm trying to strike the balance so that the AI will use them in adequate numbers without unbalancing overall troop mix too badly. Getting the AI to receive the full benefit of combat recon and - especially - behind enemy lines sabotage would require more than is realistically doable with my skills (and with my job, I'm busy enough improving my PowerShell and C# skills, lua is highly unlikely to make my "gonna-learn"-List).

引用自 "jackischaos"
Or would you say all these types of mods are made more for human vs human?
Given the structure of AI flavors, all mods that integrate into current strategic concepts can easily integrate. Mods implementing new strategic or tactical options however will either loose out on this front, or require great skills in modding Lua at the very least, game dlls at worst.
Generally, only few people are out there, that can do it, I'm not amongst them.
最后由 Bosparan 编辑于; 2014 年 2 月 1 日 下午 12:08
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