@Wolf it was an action added by Paradox in the last patch that the subjects can click.
i am not sure what are the requirements but i think they can click it even above 50 loyalty.

they just released a hot fix so they might have tweaked it already.

So is it a flat chance once they are below 50? and thus disloyal?

I think the ai_will_do needs to depend on a few factors, such as their proximity to english lands, how disloyal they are, how much they like england, etc... i.e. Flanders that has good relations with england and low loyalty should be more likely to defect than say Foix.

@kimbo i will wait until they actually release the patch before jumping to any more changes for now.

I ran a couple of tests with different setups and vanilla seems to be pretty balanced right now, with England having slightly the upper hand. Any modifiers that negatively affect France's subject loyalty will end in England winning within the first 10 years or so. I also think its overtuned right now.

Had the same results, Flanders, Brittany and Burgundy switch sides pretty frequently. That's not an issue per se and probably intended. I tried different flat loyalty penalties; every time England won, even with just -5 subject loyalty.

That's why I thought applying a loyalty penalty after the HYW might be easier than trying to find the right balancing for the HYW. I still had the idea to apply greater penalties for duchies and appanages to make the integration of Brittany and the appanages slower, but my modding capabilities are very limited.

Just checked the files and it seems it's an optino in the HYW situation that ai can click and instantly defect but the AI really wants to do it since the script (ai_will_do = 150 )
150 is super high which means the ai will always click it no matter what it seems.

this will probably be fixed i assume

@Kimbo okay just did some testing in the beta and it seems they might have overtuned it a bit.
there are events that grant -20 to france's subjects and whenever a subject is under 50% they have a chance to defect .

the thing is i tested on vanilla and in the first 5 years brittany flanders and most of france's subjects defected

so this seems like a bug to me for now

i will look into the files and see why that event is bugged.

@Kimbo unsure what the new beta changed concerning loyalty but if you wanted another approach you can try doing events that apply different static modifers to france for a specfic duration

Forgot my question: Any idea how to apply this debuff differently, e.g., as a country modifier that fires after the HYW?

I ran some minor observer tests with beta patch 1.0.10 and they showed that even minor disloyalty of French subjects will lead to England almost instantly winning the HYW even without war. Had a max disloyalty of -15 and that was already enough for England to persuade French subjects to join their side.

The idea to apply this debuff to the French government reforms is really nice and it worked very well to build different tiers of disloyalty (-5 base, -10 for duchies, -15 for appanages). But the new beta seems to have broken this approach.

It works with the Brittany + France mod and your centralization mod. I'd bet Roflpotamus did not create a playset in the main menu. It took me an embarrassing amount of time to figure that out lol.

@Roflpotamus hover over the loyalty of the subjects and see if they have -30 from "French Feudal nobility" if that is not present then you have a mod conflict. Also check the other modifiers. Their loyalty should hover around 50-60 in vanila.

@Barry & Sons They aren't designed with each other in mind but they definitely work fine together. All the mods i made were because i wanted something changed for my playthroughs

I have this installed and also the Brittany + Flanders don't join France war mod, but right after gamestart all French vassals are insanely loyal already.

Is this designed to be played alongside your reworked centralization mod? Or would the changes made in that counteract partly the efforts made in this mod to limit France? Please correct me if I am wrong.

i am thinking of making Flanders and Brittany a tributary to France and make Scotland ally france at game start.
let me know what you guys think.

@kimbo pretty sure they are able to annex them easy because if they die with no ruler they get instantly annexed.
i tried to make it so their loyalty always hovers around 50-55 so they are easier to anger and influence by actions and rivals espcially england during HYW. it seems currently at game start france does struggle with it's subjects with the latest update to this mod but i haven't tested it further than 15 years

Yes I would link it to your original mod, thanks a lot. I did some rather superficial tests with old saves and your penalty of -30 loyalty seems to be fine. I'm gonna restart my campaign and see how it goes. France needs some rather serious nerfs.
*edit* I have split the loyalty between all subjects and the appanages; the baseline is -20, and appanages give another -10. I want the appanages to be extra annoying and very difficult to integrate, like it was suggested in the thread.

You think that -30 is already good for the baseline, so to say? And another -5 for appanages would be enough? Hard to say, I don't have saves around 1600 where France hasn't annexed everything.

@Kimbo also i made the subject loyality for france -30 instead of -20 since they start with very high decentrlization and with the new patch they never have problems with that.

@Kimbo I am glad my mod could help you. if you want to mod it for your own use go ahead but if you want to publish it either link or credit the original mod please.

Thanks for the mod! I was very happy about this upload because exactly this was discussed on Paradoxplaza (cannot find the exact thread anymore, unfortunately). I'm not a modder, but I made some adjustments for myself; reducing the max tax for clergy and nobility by 10%, increasing the time required before annexing an appanage, and making them disloyal.

So in total, an appanage gets -20 subject loyalty, whereas every other subject gets -15. I am not sure about the balancing, it basically cancels out the benefit from max decentralization, and subject loyalty is basically removed from the tech tree now. France needs to invest into diplomacy to make their subjects loyal, which is a nice money sink and keeps like half of their subjects disloyal. If they don't, they can't continue with the annexation.

Would I have your permission to use your mod as a base? Thank you.

@Gabadur i am unfamiliar with how this system works in the game but i think it has to do with organizations and enemies supporting vassals but i also haven't seen anyone go independent

ive been messing with this, and the problem is that 0 loyalty vassals never declare independence or go independent. have you figured out how to make that work?

@MK Black i might change it so that it changes by itself when they don't have subjects

@MK Black Honestly no clue but they can't remove it anyways until they have no appanage type subjects

They certainly needed the early game nerf. Does the AI eventually change the reform, or are they too dumb to know this is a nerf? I noticed that Lithuania tends to stay on Manoralism for WAY too long.