Hey, can we do Lyon in winter?

You may by right, I think I've went out of sync on other Lyon maps as well, must be something from the original.

@A. Soldier
I doubt that's due to the map itself. It's pretty much just a clean port, without any scripts attached to it.

It out-of syncs too much, 3 times we tried it and 3 times we got out of sync.

Update: updated map description and finalized release.

Update: removed bad splats, updated map description.

Update: changed several territories to make "Close the Pocket" a viable option, updated map description.

@Havenco

The building looks cool and is in line with the other two. It's also very climatic with abatis and the lantern and there are windows where they are needed.

It was probably difficult to put it so high on the river bank while peninsula is not as high as the mainland.

Maybe – if you decide so in the future – you could raise a ground higher but not on the whole peninsula but only to make some section of the peninsula bank (e.g. from the building and some short way upstream) regulated (built-up) in the same way as it is now on the opposite side.

Then there could be a 'earthen ramp' (as it is now on the bridge approach) that will slightly move down to the – naturally lower - level of the rest of the peninsula.

In game it could be 'explained' as especially made regulation works made to hold infrastructure on the peninsula side of the bridge. It is common after all to regulate river banks if neccessary. In that way it could be possible to keep most of the peninsula lower and more rough than the mainland (as in the original Lyon) but with the logic exception in line with the newly added bridge and bigger building.

It's just a slight idea. The building looks already great and is fully functional.

Good job :)

Update: minor visual changes in line with feedback.

@dzieckowojny
No problem at all, and thank you for all the feedback you provided me with!

Likewise :)

Update: added new screenshots.

@Havenco

I totally agree with everything you wrote → about keeping map as same with the original as possible and about changes on the peninsula.

Your overall concept of changes to the original map refresh it yet it is still Lyon as we know it → I like it quite a lot becouse I was already a little bored with good, old Lyon from CoH 1.

I would like to thank you for the changes you've made and it was very nice to share suggestions with you. Good luck finishing peninsula house and with the future projects !

Have a nice day :)

@dzieckowojny
As you've noticed already, the main problem is the difference in height between the two canal banks. Ideally, I'll find a way to increase the height of the peninsula terrain without making it look unnatural. Whenever I port a map, I strive to keep it as close to the original as possible. And Lyon is one of my old time favorites, so it's important that it feels authentic :)

I won't change anything on the opposite side of the bridge. As you said yourself, it's a good thing that those two houses are not facing the bridge, it would simply be too much of an advantage for the opposing team in case they manage to capture it.

@dzieckowojny
Thanks for even more valuable feedback. Unfortutantely, I won't have time to do anything with the map for a couple of days. But as soon as I've got some spare time I'll get back to it. A larger house, similar to the two houses on the opposite side of the bridge, sounds like the best solution so far. And I think I'll have to resculpture the terrain a bit after all :)

I've been a bit hesitant to do any drastic changes to the map. In fact, I wanted to do as few changes as possible to the original version. But with the inclusion of a base on the peninsula I realize that some of the houses (like the one close to the bridge) will have to be changed in order to improve both balance and playability. Without a proper way for the peninsula player to defend the bridge at early stages of the game it'll become too much of a disadvantage for that player.

@Havenco

My last observation → where there are two buildings on one side of the bridge and that next to the bridge does not have any windows facing the canal → and that's good in my opinion. On the other hand, the lone building on the peninsula side of the bridge could make a good use of windows on all important sides (ammo point, bridge approach amd the canal itself) → after all it is the peninsula side of the bridge that should be favoured (for whoever control it), at least I see it that way :)

It could be even nicer if that building will also provide a possibility to harras the munition area on the other side of the bridge in some way, e.g. by a sniper nest since normal team weapons could be out of range → so matbe use a tall one as you suggested ?

I wrote quite a bit about those buildings but it is becouse I love to use buildings in CoH and I got a bit excited with the topic ;)

@Havenco

I garrisoned by turns infantry, ckm and Panzerschreck in our building → single inrantryman as well as ckm are efficiently firing in the bridge's direction; the Panzerschreck's rocket, however, is exploding inside the building doing no harm to the trops outside, even if they are very close (I'm not sure if Panzerschreck operator takes damage since my buildings provide better protection → mine, anyway is safe)

Another thing is that bullets fired from that direction go through the earth covering most of the window but – excluding Panzershreck – they still takes effect on their target.

@Havenco

I've also a suggestion – since this is probably the most important single building in the game, maybe it will be worthy to change it into bigger construction so there will be more than one firing position facing the bridge ? Maybe placing it with it's front facing the bridge will help to do the trick → if it could be done without breaking enviroment's logic ?

Situation that happened to me was that AI inf. squad stood just one meter from that window and all of its members were shoting at it, while countered only by a single defender. I'm unfamiliar with pathing but my quess is they came so close becouse they just stopped while crosing the bridge → so maybe it is a good idea to move back the structure a little bit away from the bridge, if possible ?

@Havenco

Another thing is a height of the bridge. My previous observation was a bit inacurate :) I can see now that a problem with the bridge is a difference in a height of the two canal banks and not the height of the bridge itself, which must complicate things quite a lot.

I've just read on the forum that it is a known issue with flak shots exploding on small height differences in terrain and my unit guarding that bridge was a Ostwind.

A Jagdpanzer firing from the higher bank do not damage the bridge but unfortunately is still unable to hit the infantry on the other side properly → shots hit the bridge approach.

In my opinion this situation is a bit unfortunate but is logical → the height difference makes fire combat more complicated. For me it could be a little bit more fun to fire freely above the canal but on the other hand the terrain is not always same as the commander's wishes ;)

The most important is done → the bridge is more secured from collateral damage.

@dzieckowojny
I also like the current design of the map with all munitions points on one side of the map, especially when the victory points are on the opposite side of the map. Makes it a bit of a dilemma for the players; at which time should they focus on the three munitions points and the vital bridge, and at which time should they focus on the two victory points instead. Anyway, thanks for the feedback you've provided me with so far :)

@dzieckowojny
I've now (very) slightly changed the height of the peninsula bridge, so that it will hopefully receive a bit less damage in case of a confrontation at the two opposing sides of the bridge. I've also changed the model of the house to a somewhat similar model. The new model is a bit smaller, and it has windows facing towards the bridge. I also raised the height of the house as far as I could (without having the house levitate above the river) to improve its shooting angle towards the bridge. I only tested it once, and unfortunately I couldn't get my MGs to fire properly from the house, although my regular men did. I'm not sure if I was just having bad luck or if I need to find a completely new house (possibly a really tall one, as changing the terrain is a bit of a hassle).

Update: minor visual changes in line with feedback.

@Havenco

Oh, I've forgot to write that putting all munition pts. in a one, small part of the map – and additionally, next to the already very important bridge – was a brilliant move in my opinion.

These are Lyon's tiny Arnhem and Ruhr Area ;)

Fuel pts. localisation on the front line rather than on the homefront is also a good thing.

@Havenco

I zoomed in on the peninsula bridge and it's noticeably higher than the ground level → becouse of that it absorbs quite a lot of fire going between oposite sides of the canal and thats why I got it destroyed so often; the second thing is that the high ground blocks windows of the near by building and infantry inside can't fire in the direction of the bridge (which I think is quite crucial).

My guess is you were forced to move the ground higher to implement the bridge → maybe it will be good to change it to the lower one if that's possible with the editor ?

As for the resources I think it's ok now. It is a nice feature of this map that standard pts. were limited and fuel pts. are also not too numerous so the three ammo sectors should be enough.

I play with – still expanding – quite a big tune mod which I create for me and my friend so my opinion could be not the same as from normal game... for me three is just fine :)

@dzieckowojny
Glad to hear that it's working as intended :) And I'll keep what you mentioned in mind if I decide to do some changes to the map later, so that I don't do any changes to what's already good as it is. Thanks!

@Havenco

Thx, it's working now. I will remember trick for the future :)

I hope I'll be able to play this night (CET) and I'll be very happy to share my feelings.

What I like the most in good, old Lyon transformed by you is → the limited number of points to capture (which let concentrate on combat rather tha capturing), the new base location on the totally changed peninsula and the strong tactical value – especially now – of the peninsula bridge location.

I really like your map ;P

@dzieckowojny
Could you try to first unsubscribe and then Ctrl + X all the files in "C:\Users\USERNAME\Documents\My Games\company of heroes 2\mods\scenarios\subscriptions"? (just store the files somewhere else meanwhile) Then try to subscribe again and see if it works? If it still doesn't work I can try to upload it again, although I'm fairly sure that the newest version was properly uploaded yesterday (it works here).

@Havenco

I like very much what you wrote about changes but I can't get them in game (the map is without update for me). I've tried to launch game & steam few times and I've resubscribed the map but it's still old version.

@dzieckowojny
The map has now been updated. As you can see from my previous comment I've added a new munitions point (east of the peninsula bridge). I also changed the fuel point on the southwest side of the map to a munitions point, and added a new fuel point on the south side of the map (to compensate for the previously changed fuel point). I haven't had the time to playtest it yet, so if you could give me some feedback on how it plays out that would be great :)

Update: added one munitions point, added one fuel point, changed one fuel point into a munitions point, updated map description.

@Havenco

Thanks, I will wait patiently for your changes.

As for the bridge – to be honest I also like to destroy things :)

I did not have the opportunity to play this map too many times so far and maybe I was just lucky to control that bridge (against peninsula player); I think the second bridge could destroy the uniquity of that base location, so maybe it is better to leave peninsula with just one bridge ?

After all it is easier to control it for the player from the peninsula (who will put all his troops to do that) rather than by hie enemy; and once conquered this is a worthy place to hold → two buildings, trees and the river bank make it easy to defend and there is the second bridge to control. To sum up I feel it will be more fun to leave just one bridge as it is now.

@dzieckowojny
Those are some good suggestions. I'll see what I can do, although I don't have much time right now, so it might take me a couple of days to get it done. I think I'll at least try to add two new munitions points as you said.

Regarding the peninsula, I might add a new bridge at the top instead of making the bottom bridge indestructible (I don't like indestructible bridges :) ).

@Havenco

Thank you for the offer :)

I agree that it will be a pity to remove victory pts.

As for the changing existing pts. → ammo, on second thought I think this unique ammo point make the base on the peninsula so worthy (considering its rather difficult - but interesting - starting position); maybe adding some extra, tiny munition sector inside already existing fuel sector could be good ?

E.g. on the other side of the bridge connecting this base with the mainland (just next to the two buildings) → it will still make this base worthy but also create opportunity for the opposite player ?

I like very much an unusual position of that base but in the heat of battle the bridge connecting it with the mainland was all the time destroyed – maybe making it indestructible could be helpful for that player becouse now it's very easy to block him on his peninsula ?

@dzieckowojny
Thanks for the comment, glad you like the map :)
I can change two of the fuel points into two munitions points if you'd like?
The territory points are replacements for the victory points, so they cannot be removed unless I want the map to be playable only on Annihilation.

Hello Havenco,
thank you for this map, it's quite a fresh new Lyon for me :)
only the ammo is so scarce, maybe you could change this 2 standard pts. into munnition ones ?
once again, this map gives me a lot of fun, thx.

Update (minor changes): improved pathfinding, updated map description.