全面战争:战锤3

全面战争:战锤3

Godslayer Overhaul by Mortrau (Reworking and Updating)
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Mortrau  [开发者] 11 月 26 日 上午 5:38
Need your feedback before big 4.0 update
I want to make some balance changes in next update after ToT release.

But first I need to clarify my feeling about his endgame items and other a bit overpowered things.

There are too much powercreep in vanilla WH3 in comparison to WH2 (which I like the most). If I make Daniel balanced around WH2 numbers, then it would be too difficult to him to manage with some other powerhouse in game like Malakai, Skulltaker and such stuff. Even in WH2 I managed to make a one man doomstacks pretty easy, thanks to Sword of Khaine, which you could not equip with Daniel himself. So I think that Daniel should have an ability to become a one man doomstack too. Yes, I know, that powercreep is bad, and in my ideal version of WH3 I do not wish to see one-man doomstacks, heroes doomstacks, and doomstacks of units too. But we have another WH3 sadly, even tabletop caps mod as far as I know did not solve a problem of heroes doomstacks. It is technically too difficult or may be impossible even.

But they added more powercreep with Nemesis Crown. So with that in mind I guess I need to slightly nerf Daniel endgame items.

Now to balance.
1) Early game items. Should I add some minor buffs to some early game items and which ones? I personally think that mortis engine tails a too op especially in early game, so should I move that effect a bit far from start?
2) Sets. Endgame sets will be slightly nerfed in numbers I guess. But what about new ones or more niche ones? UI is already overflooded with sets icons. So I guess I will not add new ones (may be 1 or 2 max, if new Slaanesh stuff will be gorgeous), but I can change existent ones to be more relevant. Any feedback would be appreciated.
3) Income. Personally I play only on legendary difficulty and I did not have any problems with making money early. But I affraid it is because I use horde playstyle after start of campaign. Many of you prefer more classic start and I recieved a lot of feedback about poor income of Daniel. So if CA did not change his economics I think I will add a bit more favor generation to his settlement economic building chain. Or...should I need to buff his stances or skills for it? Again, as for me - his income is ok. Just want you guys to not frustrate and struggle with his start over and over again.
4) Skill tree = tech tree - is it ok in current state? I feel it is balanced, so I prefer to not change anything.
5) Mortal units, lords and heroes. I hate this move. I made it for many of you guys, who asked me to do so, but thematically it is awful, he is a Daemon faction, so must be restricted in mortal forces. If you do not like it - play WoC. I feel I need to clean things up and make roster more vanilla again, especially after adding a pack of new units with Slaanesh DLC. As alternative I thought of adding mortal cultists of Daniel himself as heroes, with their own brand new assets. But cults would be another mechanic overflood. So I am not sure about that paragraph.
6) Semi-horde mechanic. I do not wish to make different versions of this mod. So if you do not like playing horde - just avoid that mechanic, do not construct buildings there. It was made to have more fun with rifts and world travelling. And to make gameplay around world destruction, not conquering.

So what do you think guys? Thanks in advance for feedback!
最后由 Mortrau 编辑于; 12 月 4 日 下午 6:03
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正在显示第 1 - 15 条,共 20 条留言
First off, 1 "Early Game items": I can't say much I have the Maxed Out Glory though poor Daniel always could use Minor Buffs early game. 2 "Endgame Sets": I honestly think could use some Nerfs, 1 lord against 4 stacked Lord is entertaining but to a point I would like to have a Army that can put effort as much as Endgame Daniel but with WH3s Mechanics it's all the same. 3 "Income": I use a mod called "DP Settlement Adjustments" so yeah he could use some Buffs to his settlements if CA doesn't. 4 I Dig his Skill tree, I use 2 points per Lvl so no issues for me. 5 "Mortal Units" I love having the varieties of Units if it's possible to have a patch with other mod that adds Mortals units wouldn't mind but I won't complain if you don't add a patch or keep them in the mod though I probably won't use the Cultist Hero either. 6 "Horde Mechanics" I think just add a horde mechanic to the Generic lords like Nakais horde mechanic. This one a personal Request I love to have a Armor set appearance similar to the "Armored Prince of chaos" set with a Unique crown with his Starter Head piece. Lastly I love this Mod hope it last long, Was so hype for Daemon prince when introduced now disappointed how CA just discard him in his current state like Beastman in WH2.
Vithari 12 月 1 日 下午 12:58 
Any chance we can get more stuff added to him? I know there's a LOT of stuff already, and I am likely being very greedy asking for more, but IF it is possible I'd like to see more, if not! Then that's entirely fine as well. ^^ As my mother used to say "Don't ask, don't get" so I thought I'd ask at the very least.
I dislike the Chaos Undivided mortal units. What is a mortal unit for each of the monogod factions feels pretty arbitrary. In any case, in vanilla, Daniel gets many mortal units for the monogod factions.
Goliath 12 月 5 日 上午 5:40 
1) personally I think early game is fine I have never had much of a problem.
2) I would always welcome new parts/sets as I love the customisation options.
3) I think income is fine.
4) skill tree fine also
5) I could take or leave mortal units to be honest, as long as beast men like the mono god gors stay thats fine with me.
6) I like the horde mechanic also so I would like that to stay.

also love the mod and look forward to being able to play it again when its updated keep up the good work and thank you for your work :D
Regarding mortal units, I understand that as a Daemon faction, Daniel’s core units should be Daemons. However, I believe it would be better to still allow Daniel to recruit mortal units. This way, players can control Daniel to lead all Chaos forces and initiate the ET instead of Archaon.
I think the current design in the horde mechanic—where only Daemon units can be recruited—is excellent. Perhaps what I’d prefer to see is strengthening Daemon units and weakening mortal units, rather than directly restricting the recruitment of mortal units altogether.
Finally, thank you for creating this mod.:steamhappy:
Lizard 12 月 5 日 下午 3:30 
1) Early game items could use a bit of a nerf, yeah, mortis engine was needed in vanilla because Daniel really didn't have much going for him besides that, but with this mod the easy access to mortis engine could be nerfed and he should still be fine.

2) For set effects, I really like the sets that borrows powers from other factions, like the Slaanesh Tyrant set that borrows powers from the dark elves, or the Nurgle Abomination set that borrows from the vampire counts (although I really don't like the appearance of that set, doesn't visually look like it has any relation to the vampire counts), or the Khorne Beastlord set that has beastmen stuff. I'd like to see a cross-faction set like that for Tzeentch too, maybe we can get one that has skaven abilities? I know we already have a chest piece that has some skaven stuff. Or a set that has chaos dwarf abilities? Or a kislev/ice powers focused set? I'd just like to see more of that kind of set bonus in general.

3) I'm fine with the income as it is right now, don't think it needs much tuning.

4) I assume by skill tree you're talking about the daemonic glory section, and not his personal skill tree? Assuming so, I've always thought just making his tech tree the same as the daemonic glory tree was a bad decision, I would love to see an actual tech tree seperate from the daemonic glory mechanic for Daniel, but I understand making an entirely new tech tree is a big ask, and probably more trouble than it's worth for a mod that already has so many other additions.

5) While I personally liked to play a big united chaos faction, like all the daemons, warriors, norscans, beastmen, skaven, all together. Whenever I want to do that, I just use the peacehammer mod, which works fine with this mod and enables more than just WoC, so I'm fine with the mortals getting removed from this mod to trim it a bit.

6) I like the horde mechanic, and like you said, if the players don't want to use it they can just ignore it.
最后由 Lizard 编辑于; 12 月 6 日 下午 10:00
Icecapp2403 12 月 6 日 下午 7:14 
i havent played this mod so maybe my opinion isnt very relevant but ive been watching youtube of people playing it and ive been wanting to try it, i personally really like his horde mechanic, the mortal units are good too, i havent tried his items so i dont know but the idea of sets that encourage you to mix between different pieces of each chaos gods sounds really cool, the unholy manifestations are great too. just a question, is this mod working currently with ToT DLC, like ive said i wanna try it but should i wait till you update it?
Mortrau  [开发者] 12 月 6 日 下午 8:35 
引用自 Icecapp2403
i havent played this mod so maybe my opinion isnt very relevant but ive been watching youtube of people playing it and ive been wanting to try it, i personally really like his horde mechanic, the mortal units are good too, i havent tried his items so i dont know but the idea of sets that encourage you to mix between different pieces of each chaos gods sounds really cool, the unholy manifestations are great too. just a question, is this mod working currently with ToT DLC, like ive said i wanna try it but should i wait till you update it?
I did not tested it after ToT. You could try to launch, if you get crash then no. But if you manage to enter main menu then you could try it, it will work as intended I guess. You will need Mixu to spawn mortal heroes.
最后由 Mortrau 编辑于; 12 月 6 日 下午 8:36
On the subject of mortal units I would actually love them being more restricted or removed. I usually play DoC for Daniel and to just have a bunch of demons wreck the place.

I say add the Daniel Cultists and
give them the ability to summon a bunch of different demons based on the alignment of Daniel. That seems thematic. Maybe going Undivided lets you have the 4 base summons of the mono god summons the mono faction cultists get. While the Monocultists get the more powerful summon tier 2 summon of a chaos demon if Daniel sided with a specific chaos god. Also have a shrine mount based on Daniel's path.

A cult mechanic would be cool to add. Maybe Have cults be how you get mortal chaos units by corrupting the folk there? If you feel cults are out of scope that's entirely fair!

A side request: It would be neat to add a single regiment of renown unit that is a corrupted Kislev unit with the flavor of the unit being the mortals that stayed with him from his original journey to the chaos wastes for Ursun.
最后由 RestingWitchFace 编辑于; 12 月 7 日 上午 10:03
Death_Crows 216 12 月 7 日 下午 12:07 
I've played your mod a lot and love it, I do think that the early game items could use a bit of a nerf. While I like using the mortal units a decent amount, I do think that the recruitment pool is overloaded and taking out most of the mortal units would clear up a lot of room. I would suggest maybe having tier 3 or 4 and above still recruitable but locked behind each chaos god. I feel like if you align with a certain god you would be able to recruit the chosen options of that god, maybe as one of the first unlockable units of that god. I really like the horde mechanic as I use it every time I play Daniel, I typically secure a couple regions then go full destruction/subjugation mode. You could do Daniel cultists and have skill trees you have to choose wisely to be able to use certain chaos god spells and summons, like if you choose Nurgle you could possibly summon some nurgle units and use a few spells but it locks the other three chaos god skill lines for that cultist. Possibly have a undivided skill line that you could choose and you could use a mixed skill line of all the gods for a variety but you lose out on some of the more powerful skills and summons. I think the income is fine, tho it typically is a struggle income wise at first with how expensive demon unit upkeep is. I would always love a tech tree for Daniel, but its fine how it is. Love your mod and can't wait to play it updated, regardless of what you end up doing and collect all the legendary chaos lords once again (especially the new ones). It's the reason I play Daniel lol.
Mortrau  [开发者] 12 月 7 日 下午 12:08 
For now the main conceptual problem of Daniel is in his dedication system. If he choose undivided path he will gain all without serious drawbacks.

So mortal units help to restrict undivided roster and make monogod paths more unique. Without mortals there are too few daemons for that restrictions. Cause Chaos Undivided do not have its own daemons.
Death_Crows 216 12 月 7 日 下午 12:13 
引用自 Mortrau
For now the main conceptual problem of Daniel is in his dedication system. If he choose undivided path he will gain all without serious drawbacks.

So mortal units help to restrict undivided roster and make monogod paths more unique. Without mortals there are too few daemons for that restrictions. Cause Chaos Undivided do not have its own daemons.
Perhaps with the undivided path you would have the undivided chosen, maurader champions, a token amount of elite units from each chaos god. Kinda pick and choose a few of the elites so you get a lil bit of every god but not the most overpowered units.
Cake 12 月 7 日 下午 8:55 
1) i dont think there are any issues with the starting gear, though if i were to pick at any pieces, it would be khorne 530 "Battle-Worn Shield" since the shield feels kinda "mundane" compared to other shields around that glory value, and tzeentch not getting any damaging spells until 810.
3) im sure buffing the income on buildings would make it too powerful if one were to use it with the horde buildings, but perhaps the +% income in province effect could balance it without affecting the horde.
4) personally dont like that daniel's skill tree is the "research" tree, since it forces the player to use him in every fight to get progress, even if it means risking getting him killed, otherwise i think the skill tree as tech tree is much better than vanilla, besides the "Rotting Nourishment" giving nurgle daemons reforged, its the only god-specific effect among the skills in that tier (also dont like the chaos features at 1370 still being the old/outdated mechanics, straight up feels like CA doesnt want to modify anything in this factions mechanics.)
5) i think mortals should stay, the monogod factions get mortals too, and removing them would only give the chaos furies at the start of the game unless some other daemon units are unlocked to take the mortals place.
Thoryon 12 月 8 日 下午 3:34 
First I want to say I only play on Normal difficulty because I enjoy the power fantasy. Picking items for me is more to get a visual style I like than to be the most efficient or most powerful.
With that context given, here some opinions:


1) Early game items have not felt very impactful to me personally which lead me to mostly ignore them or pick whatever most turns until I get things I visually like as mentioned above.

2) Never really bothered with Set effects because of picking items for visual style and even with mixing items around Daniel felt plenty powerful to me. Cannot say anything about the very late items to be too powerful or not. It could be interesting to consider more Sets that require less items to activate like 2 or 3 to mix and match several 2-item or 3-item sets for effects instead of having the effect of one 6-items Set or similar. N'Kari, Keeper of Secrets or Dechala style multiple arms might be cool to consider, but loving all existing options already.

3) His economy does not feel great for a long time early on, even getting more than one army is difficult to maintain for a good while early which lead me to always maximise income over anything else, postponing upgrading other things to get more fun units.

4) Skill tree I like and did not find any issues with.

5) I personally really enjoy the Mortal units in the roster, but mostly for Chosen and Hell Canons. Considering Daniel can already recruit Mortal infantry in Vanilla having Chosen only feels like the logical progression. And Hell Canons to me feel almost like a hint to his origin being a Kislev hero, like a Chaos Little Grom. Mortal Monsters like Giants and Feral Manticores feel like a nice way to have low tier single entity monsters since getting others is usually pretty late down the building chain. As for Mortal Lords and Heroes it feels logical to have them since even in Vanilla some Mortal Human Units are available to Daniel.
One thing I have noticed however is the accessibilty of Mortal units since building their structures has very low turn duration usually only 1-2 turns to build even upgrading from tier 4 to tier 5. Maybe the usage can be balanced by increasing the build time of the buildings somewhat so it is more of a consideration to get Demons or Mortals.
Otherwise Mortal units, heroes and lords can follow the same logic like you mentioned in 6), if someone does not like them there is noone forcing them to build, recruit and use them just like the Horde mechanic. Would love to see them stay in.

6) Agreeing with you. If someone does not like it, simply do not use it. I use it barely at all and only upgrade the buildings very late. Never really recruit from it and have no issues with it existing at all. Just as mentioned I feel like this logic can be applied to 5). It existing adds variety and options though noone has to use it, however it is awesome to have more choices.


Really enjoyed the mod for the options and variety, really fleshed out the faction to be one of my favourites to play. Without the mod the faction feels lacking.
Thank you for the mod and your consideration!
最后由 Thoryon 编辑于; 12 月 8 日 下午 3:55
Nok 12 月 9 日 下午 3:37 
I will be honest, I am perfectly content wih the way the mod is. That said, I understand wanting to nerf some of the late-game sets a bit. I enjoy the power fantasy of having an actual, customizable Daemon Prince that is supposed to be demigod/godlike. As long as the nerfs aren't too heavy-handed, I'm sure it'll still feel great. I trust your judgement with this, because the entire mod is so well made.
In regards to point 5: As someone that prefers to use exclusively Daemon forces, I think having the mortal lords and units is ok for the same reasoning you had for point 6; if you don't want to use mortals, you don't have to. I personally have ended up kind of liking it, as the mortal lords can become Daemon Princes themselves, so what I started doing was keeping the armies that survived to see their lord ascend, and replacing the units with Daemons for their new lord. Also, when using the Allegiance of the Damned mod it really makes your faction start to feel like its own Crisis, and makes using all the other LLs have nice variety for their units - BUT, that's involving another mod, so I understand if you ignore that point entirely.
I think making a unique cultist for him could be fun, but I also think that, yes, it could cause more mechanical bloat.
And, again, I understand if you go forward with the decision to remove mortals entirely for the reasons you listed.
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