Back in the day I did beta testing for Red Orchestra and, let me tell y'all, that volunteer beta testers could easily end up providing the same "style" of feedback as Frosty's previous thread. What lots of players fail to realize is that testing is not always fun nor glamorous. Testers are required to take time out of their regular playing schedule to run tests which may run long or short, or even get canceled at the last moment. Replicating bugs is monotonous, playing on unfinished/untextured maps is harsh on the eyes, showing up on time when other testers don't is disheartening.

Providing feedback about balance is not so easy to articulate, compared to bugs, about what a problem is, why it is a problem, and how to mitigate it, especially when personal opinion and emotions get involved. If you believe providing feedback as a way to backdoor direct a game's future development, you are mistaken and your vision is not the infallible gaming paradise you see in your mind's eye. You may even have been correct and said feature or mechanic you stated initially was going to have problems was changed later (or in the sequel... I'm not bitter), but not now, much to your dismay.

If we really want to put the work into setting up proper beta testing, we have to do it correctly from the beginning. Such a program will at least require a in-depth review of current gameplay balance (I was going to do a whole thread on just weapon balance, but the effort and time required... yikes), a design document for future development (with respect for modding limitations), and a wiki or repository to keep track of everything. As you can imagine this is a lot of prep work that requires a substantial time commitment which is unlikely to see short term gains and will slow down development. I can not emphasize enough, by agreeing to do this, you are turning your game time into work time.

Having played mods for a long time, I understand and accept that development is slower, sporadic, and far more prone to bugs compared to retail games. I'm fine with how things are now with Sernix in which updates are released to all servers at once, then a hotfix, repeat every few weeks. It keeps the gameplay ever improving and fresh and there is no real expectation of a bug free and balanced experience anyway. I know it is frustrating when an adjustment or addition screws with gameplay for a short while. Modding is a long process, so enjoy the ride and if you get frustrated, take a break and come back, lots of big updates for tactical FPS games are out now (Squad v9.1, DOI released, Arma 3 new DLC announced).

Overall I say Daimyo has made the correct choices regarding balance and mechanics by adding them with a emphasis on fun and ease of use. Of course this is with the understanding that not all systems are ready at the same time and what might be unbalanced now may not be later.

Love it. Does it count as explosive ammo or is its total ammo affected by ammo rigs? 8 rounds might be on the short side if this takes up a primary slot, 12 max with Ammo Rig 3 (stacking with Carrier 3 should be a penalty) would be my suggestion.

I'm not going to reply to anyone specifically, just throw in my two cents.

My suggestions:

First, a big bump in points medics earn for revives and heals and the ability for all players to hold off spawning. Before lives were implemented a medic would get to you whenever, outside of the normal suck of spectating, no big deal. Now though, you lose a valuable asset as lives aren't replenishable. On top of which, the vastly reduced time before enemy reinforcements creates way too much pressure on medics when things go wrong (half the team is down).

Second, overlay an icon on downed players that can be seen through walls as a replacement for radar. A lot of the rage I've seen against medics stems from having difficulty finding a player in a unusual spot or trying to navigate in a new map. About every other game (including more realistic games like ARMA and Squad) use this method and despite the unrealistic nature of it, removing the guesswork will help out new and veteran players alike. The range should be about 50 meters so some searching is involved and the medic's screen isn't filled with icons.

Beyond that I do see an underlying issue, due to the specialized roles, there isn't really anyone available to help the medics out, bar the few amazing players who sacrifice a grenade slot to help revive with a medipak. Out of 19 slots there is only 1 true rifleman class that wouldn't be less useful helping medics vs doing something else. I usually tell medics to team up with a buddy so they can provide cover while healing. Depending on the map, this isn't always possible or even the best use of resources. Snipers are somewhere up high sniping, MGs are controlling the front-line, ATs are breaking up large clusters of bots, TLs and SL are the best assault elements to cap points, and Engineers are busy deploying stuff and need people to cover them as well. Despite the higher ratio of medics to other roles, the small maps combined with a constantly ticking clock means the medics do more work than in other comparable games.

I don't know of a solution in the interim for this other than encouraging players to help drag bodies and provide cover for medics. Especially players who are berating medics should be the ones most "encouraged" to help out.

引用自 Daimyo：

My revision:
http://pastebin.com/aTWPKqYG

Have only made changes to the ones I listed as removed

Only suggest one change now that have played the map again yesterday. Put ins_abdallah_new_night_coop checkpoint and ins_abdallah_new_coop checkpoint on the fix list because of bots spawning on buildings in the immediate area adjacent the cap zone during the finale. It is practically unbeatable because the only real cover are the buildings surrounding the intersection and bots will spawn directly on players. To fix this, the bots should spawn further up the road on both sides. Looking forward to playing some older fixed up maps!

Mainly what I am seeing is bots seem to have vision through corners or other "thin" objects. I have been killed the millisecond I lean around a corner or stand at a window. Same thing happens when I am retreating behind cover too; I get out the bot's line of sight, bot fires through corner, I die. While I like the shorter reaction times, it seems the bots now "lock on" through certain cover as if there is clear LOS. So while it may feel insanely short, it may not actually be. I mean if this can't be fixed that is fine, I rather have this than the old system where I have a staring contest with a bot while I reload and he politely waits for me to finish before I dome him.

引用自 Daimyo：

引用自 Archana：

I always leave if people vote launch control. Its a waiting map for sure......

I was working on reworking that map.. Ill eventually get back to it.

@Choppah, that seems pretty aggressive for narrow map mentions

NEW IDEA BY DAIMYO (me)
What if for narrow maps (universally agreed upon) we had it so their was no bombers or a very low chance?

As for other smaller maps, we could designate higher respawn redirecting which may have unattended consequences. Are bots really spawning directly on people anymore? (on majority of maps)



Revising list from Choppah.

Yeah I intentionally went overboard and picked every map that suffered from size issues even if it was only a few of the objectives since I figured if we are going to review all the maps, might as well point out all the ones I could.

No more bombers on small or tunnel maps would be amazing. Due to certain assigned properties, some walls, ceilings, and floors are too thin. One bomber can really kill momentum on these maps even when players do split up.

Outside of reinforcement or specific cases (like finale of Burbs at bank) I don't see bots spawning directly on players but there are two consistent spawning problems which are proximity and line of sight. Small maps have problems with both while larger maps it is usually the latter. On some maps this isn't even a solvable problem since there is no location that would be a safe spawn (Safehouse's wide open field).

引用自 Wiseman738/Bobbafet：

Will add to this as i go but i feel that Inferno+Raid are totally fine, they give players plenty of agency in terms of flanking. Know that from experience.

Will update as i go down the list. @Choppah
Keep:
Gameday
Gizab (very fun+challenging map, when it was first released took us all a while to get through that map)
Zagros Convoy (why is that on there, that's an open map! :P )

引用自 Nimbus：

+1 to all of those, Gizab is a good map.

Same goes for Anbar and Winter rescue, wouldn't say they are small/narrow.
Launch control is fun and isn't that linear, there are alternative routes.

Mainly those maps are on my list because of spawn issues (getting invisi-sniped from bots that spawned out of bounds in Winter Rescue gets old) and certain cap points being in odd areas (Zagros final is laughably easy, only ever saw a team fail once) which are exacerbated by the map's size. The layout of the map is usually fine, they are just in need of fixes to majorly increase enjoyment . I just couldn't come up with more categories without too much overlap and explaining every single map would take forever.

*Flamesuit Activated*

Here is my list. Obviously the vanilla section would be removed if using the conquer version for checkpoint doesn't work out. Some maps may belong in one or more categories but are sorted by their primary issue to avoid duplicates.

Choppahs map list revisions[pastebin.com]

TLDR: REEEEEEE

P.S. Some maps I left in (notably BridgeAtRemagen and BridgeCrossing) I have limited or no experience with because of their rarity of being chosen.

引用自 Astral Sky：

引用自 Choppah：

Example two. Tunnel maps like Launch Control, Caves, Chateau, etc., these should be Hunt only maps, Checkpoint forces too many players and bots into small rooms that most players aren't even doing anything because there is no room to maneuver or flank. I end up just leaving because if your not the MG in the front or medic reviving after an IED goes off, you just sit there waiting to play.

The reason why this happens is cause people are too scared to push and too scared to die. Even when I play as a medic on chateau and caves, I end up being the one to push hardest before everyone follows. This isn't what a medic should be doing, but what I have to do sometimes to make people move along. Maybe if there was something that made people fear dying a little less, they would push harder. Or maybe not. I personally don't think it's that there's too many bots in a room. It's more of the fact that people can't see the bots, either due to their screen or them being oblivious. I've had people yell at me to turn off the flashlight in cqb, which makes no sense because they're going to see you anyways, so you might as well improve your vision. Anyone can push up, you just need to know which class weapons are suitable for the map.

Most tunnel maps are no more than 4 player model widths and usually only 2 people wide. Under ideal circumstances with the front rank prone, behind them second rank crouching, followed by third rank standing means not even half the team is doing anything. Being aggressive only works if the whole team can be leveraged during the assault. Invasion is a great example of a tunnel map done right, there are 4 interconnected tunnels and adjacent side rooms to spread out and re-position as needed. Whereas chateau... just an utter slog, even in the later stages of the maps where it widens a bit, the bots themselves are still coming through a small opening. Hunt makes the most sense for these maps because less density of bots via more spread out spawns means more movement. Then the map could fulfill the reason players want to play tunnel maps: the feeling of methodically clearing out a bunker of enemies. I want there to be more aggression like you do, but the reality of the checkpoint spawn system doesn't allow for that, it is a start and stop game mode.

I say the majority of problems regarding certain maps and modes never being picked revolves around players misunderstanding how a particular mode plays and why certain maps are better for certain modes.

Example one. CS maps like Safehouse or any maps with a singular prominent building, basically all fighting revolves around the house because it is the only building. It really should be a Outpost only map with a 1st floor and 2nd floor defend point because fighting around the house happens in checkpoint anyway. Outpost wastes the space of large maps which players inherently understand and that is why I believe it rarely voted for. TBH most CS maps are too small for anything except Outpost and Hunt with a few exceptions.

Example two. Tunnel maps like Launch Control, Caves, Chateau, etc., these should be Hunt only maps, Checkpoint forces too many players and bots into small rooms that most players aren't even doing anything because there is no room to maneuver or flank. I end up just leaving because if your not the MG in the front or medic reviving after an IED goes off, you just sit there waiting to play.

Example three. Linear maps like Karkar and Invasion or very large maps like Karkand 1&2 and Peak should not have conquer because there are only a couple routes available to objectives and/or the length of the maps is so long it takes forever to get to another objective. It just becomes a frustrating slog because you cap one point only to be unable to get another on the opposite side of the map because the bot concentration and time taken will be impossible to deal with.

Example four. Some Conquer versions of maps are better suited towards Checkpoint than their respective Checkpoint version. Prime example is the new version of Dry Canal compared to the Beta4 version. In the beta Checkpoint and the new version's Conquer mode the map is wide open for flanking and allows lots of opportunities to push into objectives. The Checkpoint mode in the new version blocks off all the side routes and really funnels players into an extremely linear and boring path. I can't even play this version of the map because it just kills the fun in my eyes.

TL/DR: The solution I see, that can be consistently applied to all servers, is to remove certain modes from maps which don't play to that map's strengths and swap the conquer version in where appropriate (mostly vanilla maps). This allows players to play the best versions a map has to offer. Plus, other less popular maps may see a boon because they aren't shackled to their sub par checkpoint version anymore. Lastly, certain modes should be removed for certain maps to prevent trolling. Trolls (which may or may not include me and/or certain other regulars and donors) are aware of certain combinations of maps and modes that are near impossible to beat and trick newer players into voting for it. Players continuously lose or stalemate, get frustrated and leave, troll has his laughs. I believe this solution is the embodiment of the phrase "less is more".