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报告翻译问题
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To be specific, I think you make some wrong or at least extremely uncharitable conclusions about the characters is E4 and E2. For example, you say that in E4 Olivia doesn't deserve what she gets, I disagree.
Olivia doesn't immediately take responsibility for the swapped painting, however, she does pay for hiding it. Although Olivia faces no formal consequences for the swap, she gets punished in a worse way than any school or arts magazine could have done. She gets blackmailed by Mia and works hard enough that she injures her hand.
Something that people often overlook is that Olivia shields Inco from the consequences of the swap and tries to keep him from getting involved with Mia. Instead of letting other people pick up the slack like she is used to doing, she tries to solve it herself for once. Olivia doesn't make Inco part of it, it’s Inco who inserts himself back into the situation. I think that is a very important point.
This is where she takes accountability, but she fails to do it alone. And when it gets hard, she shuts herself off from the rest of the world, a recurrent theme throughout the game. Her refusal to accept help with art is in principle, but I think it’s something she feels similarly about in general out of aversion to accepting help. This is where I think the critique comes from, because Olivia doesn't solve anything on her own she’s not taking full responsibility, but I would argue that this strengthens the themes of the game. Because her arc is not just about taking responsibility but also about facing her self-defeating stance about accepting help too.
If Inco hadn't intervened, she would have kept going through the last semester like this, suffering and growing bitter about it. By keeping Inco from harm, she took responsibility but that isn’t enough because that's not her only problem, and her solution ultimately hurts her. Instead of closing herself off, the silent shut-in accepts help and learns how to trust someone who has earned it. This is the struggle she overcomes, and that is her victory.
I think Iadakan was fairly careful with her to not push her too hard. Because he was so lenient, he ends up doing something drastic at the end. He is willing to do anything to change the course of his student’s future, even something morally bad. It’s not justified, but it’s human. He destroys the art of former students, and he doesn't care who gets blamed. Iadakan shows that he doesn't actually care about art pieces themselves as much as he cares about the craft and people behind the process. That is why smashing them isn’t a big deal to him, because he believes that nobody will care. In his defense, he doesn't do that much more damage than Mia had already done.
I don’t see how he values Olivia’s art more than the others, he smashed her best paintings too. It’s a selfless act because in that moment he cares more about her than himself.
He destroyed the painting to get rid of the anchor around her leg that’s been keeping her down. What she does afterwards is up to her, but he gave her a chance. He destroyed the paintings so that she can go into the future without baggage. As much as he did it for her, he also did it for himself, a last attempt to do something that mattered to him, to help his student.
I don’t like how Ben is handled either, but I think Mia is the bigger problem. Throughout the game Ben is very manipulative and almost as bad as Mia, but we’re supposed to just accept that he’s a changed man. It’s hard to believe that Ben didn’t have a hand in what Mia did over the game. He is probably the reason why Mia knows about the painting swap in the first place, and if he told her, he told her on purpose. However, we see Ben trying to make amends in multiple endings, such as in E3 and E4, so I don’t know why you think Ben didn’t earn at least a little bit of a win. In E3 he tries to help Olivia the best way he knows, and in E4 he tries to make up for his past by telling Mia to back off from revealing the painting swap in the Scaler scene, which is also the reason why Mia lashes back.
I think Ben’s redemption would work better if Mia got one too, because it would highlight his flaws more.
I think you're being uncharitable here. It’s life advice that Iadakan had forgotten and that a teenager made him remember. It also gives Inco insight into why Iadakan and Olivia are so close.
It would have been interesting to see her struggle with getting better at art as part of the process, but the whole story would have to be rewritten around it.
Moving on from E4, I also think it’s worth discussing E2 and how you interpret it in your mod Movie Night With Mia. In it you take a very Inco slanted view, but I don’t think it’s fully warranted for E2 Inco.
By portraying Inco as the victim, I think you lose some of the complexity that makes E2 so good. In E2 both Olivia and Inco are at fault for what happens at the formal. I don't think Inco deserves that much pity for what happened, because Inco is constantly lying to Olivia and himself. Inco can’t get better by just moving on from Olivia to Mia. Olivia isn’t keeping Inco back, it’s Inco that’s keeping Inco back. Jumping ship to Mia is just going to be E2 epilogue all over again, but with Mia.
He rarely expresses his real thoughts or feelings, instead he says whatever he thinks Olivia will like. This dishonesty by omission is a part of every interaction they have. Inco enables Olivia’s worst tendencies just so that he can be with her. He doesn't think about anything other than himself or how to make Olivia like him. After Olivia's tantrum, he isn't concerned about what she said at the formal, he only cares about how it's going to make him look. Caring about yourself isn't wrong, but he egged her on to give the speech without actually being interested. Inco didn't care what she was going to say, he mindlessly puffed her up because that's what he thinks he is supposed to do. When it went bad, he showed what he really only cares about himself. Inco isn't blameless for what happened, and Olivia is right to be mad at him for that.
Connecting this to Movie Night With Mia, Inco and Mia are in the wrong and need to accept some kind of responsibility, but by the end both are deflecting blame onto others. It's easy to sympathize with Inco since he wasn't being malicious, but pointing fingers at everyone else makes him unlikable because he put himself into this situation.
Even though I like Mia in your mod and I think you make some good points, it's a little rich that all the critique of the rest of the characters is coming from her, considering what she did to Olivia.
At one point Inco admits that Iadakan destroyed the display case, and he tries to justify himself instead of defending Iadakan or explaining why it happened. This came across to me like a betrayal of Iadakan, making Inco unlikable. You make several points about how Mia is justified for disliking Iadakan, but that doesn't negate what Iadakan was to Inco and Olivia. And that Mia did something a lot worse to Inco and Olivia.
All of these points highlight my problem with a Mia romance in general. What Mia does in the story is so reprehensible, that any justification just comes off as simping. I think there is potential here with Mia, just not as a romance story.
I want to address all of these point by point but can't for now. Need to keep my head clear while I'm on the homestretch for finishing the mod. Ending 2 of 4 is done and 3 of 4 is most of the way done. Also have to finish rewriting most of the first chapter after Sebek convinced me to rework it. And then that will require rewriting parts of the story to fit with it. I'm hoping to have all that done within the next week. Then all that'll be left is asset creation.
If anyone thinks I am wrong or missing the mark, please don't hesitate to let me know. Though for now, this is the mindset I want to keep for the narrative I'm nearly done with, for better or worse.
Mate take a breather. Its a random emoji thing on like a month old comment I gander the fella who left that is long since gone by this point. And 1 random emoji ain't gonna sink the entire Wani community.
Being the internet their is always gonna be at least one guy like that who is just unproductive or trolling. And having a major blowout just feeds those kinda types and attracts more usually just best to ignore em and carry on.
Eh, I don't see how that's worse than her name being tarnished should her misdeeds come to light. Injuries heal. And the fact is, Mia is characterized as an irredeemable bully who eventually gets her comeuppance, thus canceling out any karmic retribution Olivia receives. Maybe if it was a permanent injury then it would have more significance.
No, she repeats the same mistake as before which is purposefully keeping him in the dark and then hoping the problem fixes itself. I do agree that Inco taking the initiative and getting involved of his own volition is an important point in his development, and is one of the few instances where he directly impacts the story rather than being a passive actor. That doesn't change the fact Olivia herself is still being irresponsible and not respecting Inco enough to tell him of impending danger, which is a theme with her. She's short-sighted and doesn't think ahead, always wanting instant gratification.
That's a good point and it's certainly in keeping with the themes of the game. My biggest gripe is that Iadakan is aware this is all happening and was most likely aware of her initial subterfuge and he just stands by and does nothing, which kinda of reinforces Olivia's own attitude. I know the idea is that he's hoping she'll come forward on her own to take responsibility but in both instances she acts too late, and he's just willing to let Inco take the brunt of her inaction, which makes him look negligent towards one of his charges. That he never scolds Olivia for abusing Inco's trust after he vouched for him is annoying.
As someone on Reddit pointed out, "Iadakans willingness to essentially burn anyone to help Olivia goes under criticized he was really willing to let an active artist have his reputation be forever tarnished on the haopes she could forward about replacing Inco's submission has always kind of agistate md with how easygoing Inco is about it."
Inco always has to come to her rescue and receive practically no net benefit for it, other than having a moody chick with BPD be his girlfriend.
But again, she never faces any repercussions that aren't of her own making. In either case, she's still shielded from responsibility and never faces any lasting impacts since it's all brushed under the rug. If anything, it only feeds into her growing over-reliance on Inco which we see in E2. Iadakan practically sets them both up for this outcome which can only be avoided if Inco goes the extra mile in asserting himself. Which apparently has the effect of altering her personality so she actually respects him and doesn't just view him as a means to an ends.
I get that Iadakan is flawed and I think that's why he's a well-written character with a three dimensional personality. But his flippant attitude towards other people's works is, if anything, like a signal to Olivia that they're less important than she. Which happens in E2 when she leans on Inco who puts his own artistic pursuits on hold for her. And that could've been the case for all those whose art he destroyed. Maybe they wanted to continue pursuing but couldn't because life got in the way. Olivia continually has tunnel vision with regard to art being her only out. She tells Inco "there's no other baskets" during the rain scene, and this is pretty much Iadakan reinforcing that whether he knows it not.
Not to mention, but destroying both painting, he's not only covering for Olivia but himself who was aware of it. It just makes them both look self-serving. Inco, again, gets nothing out of this. He's a witness to it all and is along for the ride. A sensible person might've washed their hands of it all and walked away from them both.
He smashed her paintings knowing she could always make more because he's knows there's more to art than just mere material. He saw they were holding her back and was freeing her from bondage.
That's the narrative crux of the action, at least. But in his mind, he already had nothing to lose. He even says something sardonic like "what are they going to do, fire me?" And it's still piling more onto Mia, who you could say "deserved it," but it's still him throwing someone else under the bus. And Inco is just going along for the ride with no say in it. The game even makes of point of saying Iadakan ignores him when Inco initially protests what Iadakan is doing. For a story about Inco developing his own agency, his own needs are often placed on hold for Olivia who is the more flawed of the two.
Again, the problem is he let it get that bad due to his own initial inaction. If Inco had gone to Principal Scaler--which he really should have--Olivia and Iadakan both would've been forced to deal with their own crap. But everything conveniently aligns to Olivia not only faces lesser consequences but her coming out ahead of it is presented as her character growth, and not just her being allowed to cheat fate at Inco's expense.
She is Inco's anchor.
In E2, he let's her drag him down. In E3, he's strong enough to carry them both. In E4, they're both strong enough to work in tandem, but she still gets to avoid taking responsibility. It's Inco he has to clean up her mess in Scaler's office and outsmart Ben so he doesn't end up getting punished alongside Mia when he did NOTHING wrong. Then he has a moment where he turns to Ben and tells him it's all his fault from the beginning because of the article he wrote for her. But that flies in the face of Inco's earlier correct proclamation to Olivia that's she responsible for all her own problems if you make all the right choice in the Art Contest Blues chapter.
It all comes back to Inco himself starting as collateral in some ongoing war. He's a victim of fate in a lot of way. And while I think that makes him interesting, I don't like that Olivia essentially gets to get away with it. He's perpetually at the bottom of a triad composed of himself, Olivia, and Iadakan, with Ben in orbit.
Agreed. His redemption in E4 is half-assed, and I even want to say he's responsible for Mia getting to the point she reaches.
But again, Inco is just on the sidelines having to deal with the crap Olivia puts him through which Iadakan never rebukes her for. It's an unequal relationship. His art is just collateral.
Oh, I don't deny E2 Inco is very flawed. I've made no secret that I don't like him because of how annoying and weak he is. That doesn't make him any less of a victim though. He's just letting himself be victimized because we live in a society that's never not telling men and boys to "do better" and "be kind" by people who have no intention of reciprocating. He makes his own bed with Olivia.
With our mod, Inco has a chance at finally attaining personal agency, but he can't gain it without first severing his ties with Olivia. The worst Inco does in E2 is act with hubris while reinforcing Olivia's bad behavior without knowing it. She's still responsible for own selfish attitude.
I address all this in the first chapter of the Mia mod. Again, I'm not saying he's without fault. And even if he egged her on, she still made the choice to act that way herself. She's still responsible for her own behavior. This seems to be something people in this community forget. The game's narrative crux is that Olivia has to take responsibility for herself. She's not Inco's puppet. She's hears what she wants to hear from him. Hell, I even have Mia tell Inco flat out to his face that he puffed up her ego more or less. But Olivia still chooses to be how she is.
I ".. In fact, I was disappointed and even angry she did."
Mia "Well I mean why wouldn't she? She was the center of your attention—and Iadakan's too if what you're saying is right."
I "Yeah...she was the center of my attention. So why?"
Mia "Look, I'm gonna tell you a harsh truth as a chick myself: no woman respects a man who makes her the center of his world."
I "..."
Yes, both are deflecting blame. That's part of their mutual character flaws. Mia says it herself that people always project their flaws onto others, but that's what she herself is doing through her spiel. I explore all this in the Mia mod, and its four ending reflect that. (at least I hope).
During the part of E1 where she and 1nco are dancing, Mia has a lot of interesting insights about Olivia. From a technical standpoint, she is being what's called an external narrator, where instead of the narrator telling the reader vital points of interest in the plot, a character is expositing the most important parts. I believe that's what Cavemanon were doing with Mia on a mechanical level. But I take it to mean that Mia is a very streetwise person who knows how to read people. That would certainly be in keeping with her sociopathy. And the whole point of her cynical observations on people and the world is that it takes one with the disease to recognize the symptoms.
She and Olivia are more alike than either would like to admit.
Why wouldn't E2 Inco betray Iadakan? Considering his state of mind and also that he's feeling betrayed himself, having put so much effort into Olivia only to get shoved aside. Besides, Mia is intimidating him into telling her what she wants to hear.
Well, Inco has a chance to simp for Mia and reinforce her own behavior the way Ben did. I made this for fun because I always wondered about a Mia x Inco story, as have many others. It was just a question of find a good common denominator for them, and that's Solly, who I think had the potential to be a better mentor figure than Iadakan (or even Ferris for that matter).
Writing and programming is complete and the endings are all ready to go. It's just a matter of Sebek finishing up the assets. I'll be interested in hearing your thoughts on the mod a month from now.
To say one final thing in closing, some people think I don't like Inco but that's not true. While it's true I don't like him as much as Anon, I think in some ways he's a better (or has the potential to be a better) protagonist because he doesn't spout esoteric 4chan humor(I like Anon's edgy jokes though) and is a more relatable fish out of water archetype. I feel bad for him if anything because he's often treated like a joke by the community, condemned to act the part of the bumbling nitwit paired with a more intelligent wife/girlfriend like it were some formulaic sitcom.
I've ended up resenting Olivia for this and wishing to see Inco treated with more respect. She's an annoying brat. I think Anon and Fang are a better couple on the whole. Inco and Olivia are too one-sided.
I think the blackmail and the physical injury are serious consequences, considering the only reason it stops is because Inco intervenes. It’s not out of the question that this could have become a more serious issue, both psychologically and physically.
You present this as an issue of Olivia not paying enough compared to Mia, but I don’t see much point in this comparison, since the reasons for how and why they face consequences are unrelated. I don’t think what happens to Mia thematically negates Olivia's story, even if Olivia was in the wrong. I also don’t think Mia paying or not paying for whatever she did really matters to the story in general, which is also why I think she’s not handled that well in E4.
There is no danger for either of them if Olivia keeps silent about the blackmail. Mia has also probably demanded that Olivia keep her mouth shut. Why would Mia let Olivia tell people about this? That’s part of the blackmail.
Olivia has another reason to keep quiet about it, Inco. She’s protecting Inco by not telling him, because that way she can paint for Mia without him feeling bad about it. Inco is very relentless at times, and it’s one of his biggest virtues. She knows that if he finds out, he will try to fix it like he usually does. Inco also kept this hidden for so long that could be even worse for him than Olivia if it came out.
So it makes sense from Olivia’s perspective why she would want to hide it, because she means well. This can also be interpreted as Olivia just being selfish, but I don’t believe that’s the full story. She’s held feelings for him for a long time, and I find it difficult to imagine she doesn’t care about Inco at all.
By going along with the blackmail, she's just digging herself and him into a deeper hole. It's a pattern she's been repeating for years, hurting herself and everyone around her. It’s wholly Olivia’s fault, which makes this all the more tragic and in line with the point that I think the game is trying to make about Olivia.
She hopes the problem will fix itself, but now at a personal cost of her physical and mental health. If Inco hadn’t intervened, it would have gotten a lot worse. Olivia only stops when Inco convinces her to confess to the swap. She avoids getting punished, but that’s only because she takes the risk of placing her trust in Inco and thus taking her first step towards growth.
But I see what you mean. Olivia is very passive after the blackmail when she’s the one who caused the whole mess, but I don’t mind this in the overall picture of the story because how it characterizes Inco in the process and because it adds some grayness to her character. Olivia is ultimately not strong enough to do it alone.
Inco, in turn, decides to be the hero and she’s the princess he wants to save. His headstrong attitude of rushing in first, then thinking second is both a weakness and a strength because he is not the archetypal hero and Olivia is not the archetypal princess.
I think the writers brilliantly use this to deconstruct their relationship in E1 and E2. E2 only hits that hard as it does because of all this setup and because of all the sacrifice Inco goes through for her. Likewise E1 only hits so hard because of Olivia’s tragic self-destructive behavior and Inco’s hero complex.
My take is that Iadakan is not aware of the full extent of the painting swap. From his perspective, he just knows that the painting was swapped with hers. For all he knows, Inco could be a part of it, because that would be the easiest way for her to swap the painting. In that case, by not saying anything he is protecting both Inco and Olivia. I’m going with that interpretation since it fits with his character.
Olivia’s explanation is skipped over in the game, which leaves it vague if that part was ever mentioned to him.
"She had taken the better part of an hour explaining Mia's extortion in full detail to Mr. Iadakan."
We are told in the game that Olivia is scolded quite often, and we see it happen as well. I think that Iadakan can’t help her by scolding her either, because it hasn’t happened in four years. It’s implied throughout the game that Olivia is stuck mentally and socially. That’s why Inco manages to do it, because he's the outsider that she’s not used to dealing with.
Inco being victimized by Olivia is never brought up because it is not something Inco himself considers to be true anymore. But this is not to excuse Iadakan, I agree that he should have said something about this, and it seems like a writing oversight that he didn’t. Having Iadakan realize her deceit and giving her a scolding would have made for a more satisfying conclusion to his own story and to Inco’s involvement in the painting swap, even if Inco already forgave Olivia.
It's a recurring plot beat of the story that Inco helps Olivia get out of a mess she herself caused, but keep in mind that she never wanted the help in the first place. I don’t see Inco as a helpless bystander, he chooses to help her, nobody forces him to. And as you said, he gets nothing from it, but I think that’s the point from a narrative perspective. Olivia is not “worth” saving, but Inco does it anyway. And yes he chooses to do so for no benefit other than getting a moody BPD girlfriend. Indeed, why would Inco go to such lengths, just to get this crippled, moody mess of mental illness? As opposed to what, a sociopathic jock girlfriend? The main characters can be very ugly, each of them in their own way. I always saw this as a love story that happens despite their flaws, and as a story of overcoming these flaws for love. It’s only expected of them to make the same mistakes again, but to keep trying to change anyway.
Only one of the endings is the truly good ending, because of how messed up both of them are. Inco gets some character development from Olivia’s crass nature in E4, but getting over his obsession what other’s think of him is his own battle, just how accepting responsibility is Olivia’s own battle. No matter how much Inco tries, if Olivia doesn't step up herself they will never solve their problems. Inco is obviously the more active one in the relationship, so when Olivia reciprocates it’s her first step, both literally and figuratively in the dance.
I think the repercussions matter more because they’re of her own making, given what it represents, as I’ve mentioned earlier.
I agree and I think that the bad endings are even more tragic because of this. I think it’s great writing that Iadakans’ attempts to help can be reinterpreted as only having enabled E1 and E2. But I disagree that it’s somehow incongruent with the themes of E3 and E4 because of the reasons I presented earlier, intent matters. In my opinion, in E2 the smashing of the paintings can be interpreted as the catalyst to start obsessing over her and Iadakan’s legacy, and in E4 it can be interpreted as her finally letting go of her past bitterness that drove her to withdraw and ignore her problems.
Mia knows about the swap, Ben knows. The digital submission still exists, so it’s not destroyed. By destroying the painting he’s not destroying any evidence, and that is clearly not his is intent.
I agree that Inco should have been more active in this scene, it would have been better to somehow include him in that scene. But I think it’s a bit too much for him to walk away, since he’s deeply invested in Olivia’s success.
Mia did deserve it, dude. Based Iadakan.
But you make a good argument. I just think it’s part of his charm that he goes out guns blazing like this. There’s something admirable and badass about going all out to violently smash the symbol of Olivia’s self destruction. Certainly the art of those people mattered, but its justifiable. I don’t think a single one of those students would have objected to him smashing that display.
Iadakan ignores Olivia’s protests as well, so it's not just that he's ignoring Inco. I don’t think Iadakan is being malicious, at least not intentionally, except perhaps towards Mia.
Inco should have done plenty of things differently, but I think that it’s an important part of the narrative that he didn’t go to Scaler. Inco keeps trying to help Olivia despite her clearly being a negative force on everyone in her life, and she keeps making the same mistakes over and over again. But Inco, for better or worse, continues to try and help her. This is his own choice.
Inco could have reported her and broken off contact. And I agree with you that he should have pushed her to admit to what she did. He had every right to be angry at Olivia, report her, and to never talk to her again, but he chose to forgive her instead.
The game even makes a point out of this in Art Contest Blues.
Olivia:
"I'm sorry, Inco."
"...For all the ♥♥♥♥ I've put you through since you got here."
"...For being a really ♥♥♥♥♥♥ friend."
"...For you having to put up with me."
Inco:
"Ben can't take your agency, and you can't take mine."
"I'm choosing this."
Inco absolves her of her guilt to him on his own terms. His forgiveness, however we frame it, as weakness or just misplaced compassion, is what drives the crux of the story forward and sets up his character, building on the rest of the game and what happens in the endings.
However, I get why this could be considered bad writing, because her story is about taking charge of her life and Inco is the one who fixes all her problems, she doesn't really have to do anything. This works perfectly for setting up E3, where she just continues being like this despite Inco’s best efforts which leads him to overcompensate for her.
This should leave ending E4 without a satisfying culmination to Olivia’s arc, but I don’t think it does.
Circling back for a moment, the main lesson is Inco’s lesson in Art Contest Blues, generally goes beyond just accepting responsibility for the painting in my opinion. I think its about getting a grip on her life, and how she’s acting towards other people. It’s also about accepting what she did, who she is, and what she wants to be going forward.
Achieving this doesn't have to necessitate a walk of shame, or a melodramatic scene of self sacrifice on her part. I’ve come to appreciate that this story didn’t do that in fact, because of how real it feels. Instead, Olivia just wants to survive. It makes the characters feel real, and it makes the stakes feel real too.
I don’t even think E4 needs Olivia to “earn it” by “paying for it”, because in the end it’s just her choice to get better and to follow through that’s really needed. Despite all she went through, everything wrong she did and will continue to do, her choice to grieve for Iadakan and to honor him by fulfilling her promise by painting the fountain, her choice to reciprocate the love to the Paynes, and her choice to practice for hours on end to have the dance with Inco is her victory.
This is why I think the story resonated with people so much. Olivia doesn’t really deserve to be saved or helped, but Inco does it anyway. And because she does not deserve it, in a way it says that even the most broken person is worthy and capable of love. She’s not all bad, and the way their flaws complement each other helps Inco grow as well. That’s why Olivia is so easy to sympathize with despite how wrong she is, and why Inco is so likable despite how much of an idiot he is.
Olivia wants to reciprocate, so I don't think it's a fair comparison. And besides Inco has plenty of other flaws besides just being weak. In E1, E2, E3, he enables Olivia and even uses her to feed his ego, and at a certain point, he’s just as culpable for his own failure as Olivia is for her own.
I agree that Inco was wronged and used, so he is a victim, but it’s what he chooses to do with it that that lifts him from that position. I think that’s the point Cavemanon wanted to make with Inco (and Olivia), without turning him into a strong caricature of himself.
I certainly don’t think the message is to just be a pushover, but I don’t think it makes the opposite point either, so I understand why that might be off putting. This doesn't hurt the story in my opinion, because it just shows how love can be, rather than how it should be. You get the good with the bad, and the bad with the good, they are inseparable. I begrudgingly respect the writing all the more for this.
My response ended up way longer than I hoped it would be. Thanks again for the thought provoking discussion.