边缘世界 RimWorld

边缘世界 RimWorld

Thinking Spot
Mistletoe The Bard 2019 年 10 月 18 日 下午 8:33
Discussion about tweaking this mod and my tips for playing with it.
TL;DR: Read only the part after -Insulation Hot and Cold -

I wanna address some issue I found it really difficulty to play with this mod in certain biomes with Naked Brutality(Starting with 1 tribe naked pawn with nothing). I understand that this is the flavor of this mod, but I wanna know if others or @PartyCowboy have any thoughts of what can possibly be done. You can also see this thread as my Naked Brutality starting guide, since that's the first thing I thought about when I saw this mod. (I don't think this is what the mod is designed for when he made this mod though however. LOL)

I wanna address most of the threat for Naked Brutality/Thinking Spot and my way of counter them, so I can address what I find no solution. I suggest anyone who hasn't played Naked Brutality/Thinking Spot before to tried them out first before reading a guide though. It's a lot more fun without a guide.

Before we talked about the threats let's talk about the starting pawn. In my experience, your starting pawn for NB w/wo TS has to be 12+ Melee preferably 14, 2 flame passion for Intelligence and somewhat a decent in Medical. The rest are optional, a somewhat decent constructor and mining can help, but it's mainly about what your plan is once you survived early game. I will explain why these stats below with threats. With my tips and RNG, you should be able to survive early game as long as you don't have any bad traits. However, cannibal (too easy imo), ascetic and Super Immune are really fitting traits.

There are 5 types of threat for starting with nothing: Food, Disease, Mood, Hostile NPCs, and Insulations. I will label them as "Both","NB(Naked Brutality Only Solution)" or "TS(Thinking Spot Only Solution) to further separated them in detail.

- Food -
1. (Both)If you are on food rich biome such as temperate/tropical forest you can simply lived by foraging plants forever. Should still work on shrubland swamp if you run around the whole map.
2. (Both) On extreme biomes such as icesheet and extreme desert you will always have to punch snowhare and lizard to eat them as food. It's better to eat them without butchering to get more food out of them. On this part ice sheet can be easier than extreme biome, since I believe lizard hits harder than snowhare. This is why you need a high melee stats pawn.
3. (Both) Observe the predator on your map, take their target's corpse once the predator hunted something(only do this with NB, because you won't even be able to build a room to hide inside with thinking spot this early. It's better to leave to corpse outside for the predator to eat, so they don't turn manhunt and hopefully they will bleed out before they comes for you.), and grab predator's corpse once predator's bleed to death from their target's counter attack.
4. (NB only) Lay down some traps and wait for the predator to come to you for free meat, you can also punch a thrumbo and run to your trap if you are desperate for food.

- Diseases -
1. This is why you need to be a decent med pawn.
2. On normal biomes, just gather some herbal med, then you will be fine.
3. On extreme biomes, without herbal med you will have to micromanage self-tend and immediately sleep on a med sleeping spot. Otherwise, you will die. This is where super immune come in handy. It's ok to prepare carefully in the super immune trait imo, since dying to disease alone on icesheet/dessert really isn't anything fun but more of RNG.
4. I believe you will always die without med, super immune trait when you do self-tend, if you ever caught a plague, so ya... unlucky..... Another reason to start with Super Immune.

- Mood -
1. (Both)On normal biome this shouldln't be too hard to deal with, depends on your difficulty settings, of course.
2. (Both)Cannibal = don't need to worry about mood
3. (Both)Ascetic is pretty good and less cheaty than cannibal.
4. (Both) 2 Flame passion gives a +14 mood boost. This is why you want a 2 flame passion in intelligence, since your pawn will be researching all the time and he/she barely has to stop and walk while researching. That means +14 most of the time except eating and sleeping. Which is A LOT.
5. (Both)What to do if you cannot keep your mood high? Make 2 work schedule, one filled up with "working", while another filled up with "anything." This will be the 2 schedule early game, ♥♥♥♥ sleeping regularly. Keep your starting pawn working when he or she is about to break. If the pawn fall down due to exhaustion, immediately draft and undraft him to wake up and continue working. Your pawn will fall asleep soon after they have any mental break to stop them from mental breaking. (If you get Catatonia then it's gg, but that's the only exception.) Swap back to the all "anything" schedule once they broke since they will get the +40 mood buff. Constantly going intentional mental break and fall asleep then back to "anything" schedule should be your early game flow on extreme biomes without cannibal.
6. (Update) I discovered that camp fire as a gathering spot is a good way to provide recreation early game. I am talking about thinking spot of course. It's possible to build one early for the mood, if you research it early. It can work as a place for recreation without burning, so just prohibit your pawn from refueling it, if you don't have many wood.

-Hostile NPC-
1. Predator: Trap your door for free meal(NB). For TS, you should constantly checking(Use Wild Life Tab Mod) on their food meters and build a wall to lock yourself inside the room until the predator hunted something else. It's better to leave the animal and raider's corpse outside to kept the predator fed when you are playing TS since you cannot build traps. You will have to research walls first in TS of course. If you get predator before you research walls then this is where high melee stats for... I once beated a polarbear with 14 melee pawn... extremely lucky... she didn't have enough time to tend before she fall down due to pain shock though.
2. Man Hunting Animal: Pretty much the same as predator, trap(NB) or wall off(TS), fight when you have no wall research(TS).
3. Raiders and infestation: for NB you should always use traps. For TS read the point below to try to get a weapon as soon as possible.
4. Getting Weapons. If you are lucky you can mine some silver and buy a range weapon. Otherwise: You will always be checking all the visitors' and traders' bio. If you ever see anyone with a range weapon with "Wimp" Trait. Just equip a log and give that wimp pawn a punch. It's usually enough with only 1 punch, 2 punch at most for a wimp pawn to fall down. Each attack will drop -30 good will with the faction. As long as the goodwill doesn't drop below -50, the pawn's friends aren't gonna attack you. After the wimp pawn dropped just grab his weapon, strip him and rescue him. It will be extremely easy to rescue him to gain back some good will, since he only got punch once or twice, that's less than 5% health. You will be able to gain a weapon, some clothing and maybe other loots with net lost of only -17 good will.
5. If point 4 seem to be easy/not lore friendly then install some ammunition mod or No Weapon Looting Mod, so you won't be able to craft ammunition even if you have a gun. LOL

- Insulation (Hot and Cold) -
This is the issue I wanna talk about.
For NB:
- Cold: In icesheet, dig some steel and build a house on a steam geyser as soon as the game starts. This is the only way, no other solution for you to survive the first night.
- Hot: In desert, research passive cooler first before anything else, build a passive cooler as soon as possible. Or, dig very very deep into mountains. (I never tried this but I heard it works, but you are racing with heat stroke and you will have no time for fist fighting lizard, dig a straight line.) This is where mining stats might be useful, if you planned to pick a mountain biomes. However, this doesn't seems very practical for NB anyway, since you have other things such as food to worry about.

For TS:
- Run to nearby tiles and hopefully it's warmer/cooler over there, and come back to the extreme biomes once you have the research and call it a Thinking spot extreme biome playthrough.

- Cold: On ice sheet, you can't build fire, you can't build doors, you can't build walls around steam geyser, you will die before you research anything.
- Hot: In desert, dig straight into mountains, but what about fist fighting lizard for food, most likely you will die, either by heat or starvation. Also, what if you don't wanna start on a mountains terrain?
- Early Heat Wave: You will die, even on temperate forest, unless you research wall first and having a mountain on the temperate forest.

This is where I want some tips and ideas about Thinking Spot. I feel like passive cooler shouldn't be behind fire, since it really limited the ways to deal with heat wave even on temperate forest, and that feels really just RNG while playing with Thinking Spot.

Also, I wonder if it's ok to start the game with just fire and passive cooler, or maybe a different version of Thinking Spot for those people who wanna play in more extreme biomes. I really like the idea of this mod, and how much work PartyCowboy put into making all these patches. This mod is actually a huge project and it really deserve more recognition simply for the work amount he put into. Currently, I feel like it's a shame that this mod cannot be too versatile on the starting biomes and terrain, and the biggest limitation are the Hot and Cold in my opinion. Starting with fire and passive cooler are probably still not enough for ice sheet and extreme desert, since we will still at least need to research wall, and those biomes won't give you enough time before you died off hot/cold. However, it will enable the possibility to start in trunda, boreal forest and maybe normal desert, if you pick a more mild temperature in those biome.
I really like the idea of discovering fire though. Currently I can only think of a few solution listed below for this:
1. Make TS started with fire and passive cooler
2. Make another version of TS that start with those.
3. Make Fire and passive cooler parallel research instead of fire being pre-requisite of passive cooler, and decrease the research to 75 points for both. (Honestly, why so high as 300 anyways? We can't even cook on the fire and dying to heat wave, cold snap isn't anything interesting in the gaming aspect for even playing on temperate forest.)
Any other thoughts?
最后由 Mistletoe The Bard 编辑于; 2019 年 11 月 2 日 下午 7:40
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PartyCowboy  [开发者] 2019 年 10 月 19 日 上午 7:16 
Hmmm, you are making a good point with the passive cooler. Admittedly, that is probably why Tynan put it as a non-prereq tech. I will fiddle around with it to see what works with vanilla and the various patches (because that is the downside of maintaining such an expansive mod).

I can’t really remember why I put it at 300 either, probably because I felt the tech-tree would be over too soon in vanilla or something like that... I’ll definitely take a look and balance it some. I really appreciate this feedback, since bouncing ideas off of yourself is quite hard😄.

I will most likely post an update here within 2 days about the changes, but that is no guarantee, for the tellers of my story have decided that I need to make 5 exams in the week after the coming one and 3 exams the week after then. Happy suffering on the rim!
PartyCowboy  [开发者] 2019 年 10 月 19 日 上午 7:21 
And yeah, naked brutality runs being more difficult is a side-effect of the mod. I mainly made it for a scenario about some fallen gods who have to rediscover civilization and progress their technology from knocking people over the head with a piece of wood to knocking people over the head with a super-dense alloy wich can only be lifted using advanced bionics...

If you have any thoughts regarding how to improve the tech tree for NB runs, please let me know!🙂
Mistletoe The Bard 2019 年 10 月 19 日 上午 10:33 
I have to be honest other than the fire/passive cooler issue. I don't have much problem with the mod's current state, maybe a few research point requirement for early tech being quite high, but I don't see it as much issue. It's pretty hilarious this way. However, if you ever gonna tweak the research point just remember that thinking spot is only half the speed of normal simple research table, so every research should be viewed as double requirement. 1200 points for passive cooler seems too hard to achieve early game(not too slow, just too dangerous to not have it). Not to mention the fire you got are not even cookable. lol

I don't think the high numbers are the issues though, I think mainly the issue are being careful with pre-requisite. If you gated something behind other research then the research of that certain things will become ridiculously high under thinking spot's speed penalty, making something hard to get, so maybe release more starting tech research parallel might be a good idea, but I kind of like how funny it is now though.
最后由 Mistletoe The Bard 编辑于; 2019 年 10 月 19 日 上午 10:37
Mistletoe The Bard 2019 年 10 月 19 日 上午 10:43 
This is also my another point that i feel like the current state of the mod is really fun in its own flavor(other than fire/passive cooler). It will still be too difficult for NB in extreme biomes(or not even NB since you can't build wall), with the fire passive cooler change. I think this problem can be easily fixed by changing fire/passive cooler and lowering the Wall research's points or making door research without pre-req requirements and lower points, so people can build their houses with fire/passive cooler on more mild temperature extreme biome. (You will still die on icesheet for sure, unless you use some race mod).

However, that really change the flavor of this mod. I ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ love the idea of not knowing how to build doors when I research the bow first. This is why I feel like maybe there should just be another version of this mod simply for easier " Warm/cold housing start" just for extreme biome. This is the only way I can think of right now, but I am not very satisfy with this.
Mistletoe The Bard 2019 年 10 月 19 日 上午 10:50 
As for now, I would say maybe just leave that part for people using mods. I used MISC- Map Gen on my current play through, so simply just use the abandon house I found as my base. And it's kind of funny that other mod can still work, because it's not patched. For example, I believe most people who use "Gloomy vanilla" and "Gloomy Furniture" will realize that they can still build the wall and door from gloomy's mod. (which will be a lot of people, since a lot of ppl use gloomy.)

One of the easiest way to cheese the system is use "Minify everything" or ""Uninstall Rimworld" to reinstall the ruins and make a house. These are all very cheaty of course, and might as well just start with those tech instead.

The less cheaty way I think should probably involve some race which can endure high/low temperature. I don't know. If I come up with better idea for NB/Extreme biomes I will let you know.

Some mods are hilarious to use with this mod, someone mentioned random research, I think craftable research blueprint are also hilarious. I learned how to make plumbing system before I know how to make doors, because I got a blueprint of it from the raider, so I can craft a toilet and shower but without doors to cover you while using it.
最后由 Mistletoe The Bard 编辑于; 2019 年 10 月 19 日 上午 10:56
Mistletoe The Bard 2019 年 10 月 19 日 上午 11:05 
Also, may you let me know more detail of the scenario you use to play this mod? I am really interested in other way of playing it (I only thought about NB). Plus, I will probably understand more of the reason behind the set up of the research tree from your custom scenario.

And hey, don't worry about rushing out the mod, that's a lot of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ exams. This mod is such a huge work. It's a shame that not enough people would like to try it. You've done a lot already. Thank you for all these hard work. :D
I would suggest you to add a few screenshots of 1. production tab with only the thinking spot. 2. Research tree screenshot. 3. A merged screenshot of all the tabs being empty. LOL When I first saw this mod, I though this mod only deleted the research bench, but kept everything else. I didn't understand the mod until I accidentally added this mod into my new save.


One last suggestion is that maybe you need to patch more mods related to medieval, industrial mods. I understand it's really hard, since that your mod are highly relying on other mods gating their items behind basic workbenches. And patching medieval mods means that you will have to re-route all the new modded production workbenches if any of them are default buildable without the need of research. (Or easier research route, for example I have a wheat mod, which allows me to grow wheat with 500 research point without any pre-req compare to agriculture, because it's it not re-rout with patch.) However, right not when I open my research tab, I feel like I have nothing to do for early game other than researching for those things I am suppose to know in a normal playthrough. I removed all the mod which let me craft things other than gloomy and Bad Hygienes after I talked to you, so my research tree looks really empty before eletricity, then it just gone really fat after electricity. Therefore, it's basicly playing an early game to research everything such as wall and plants, then it's finally a normal playthrough with exciting mods, which isn't the strength of this mod. This mod suppose to make ppl stays in tribe age for a long time, and having something to enjoy tribe/medieval life while the long research time. Therefore I feel like a lot more primitive related mods will probably help. I would totally down to play a game with only medieval tribe items, crafting magic potions, relic, shooting bows, summoning Cathulu, brewing beer, growing wheat and magical plants and wearing chain mails against elfs and dwarfs as dragon born and removed everything above medieval with Medieval time mod, which means I will never know what a simple research bench is and only use thinking spot for the entire playthrough. Sounds good isn't it? xD Maybe a discussion post for people to suggest mod patch will be nice. Haha. However, it is all up to you and your time though. This is a tons of work with not much return, so i can totally understand if you cannot do so. You are the one handling all these, as for now, I probably talk enough(too much! :p). You probably know more than me.
最后由 Mistletoe The Bard 编辑于; 2019 年 10 月 19 日 上午 11:22
PartyCowboy  [开发者] 2020 年 7 月 15 日 下午 12:56 
I'm sooooo sorry I haven't read your posts sooner! :steamsad:
I love all your suggestions, and will definitely keep them in mind.

When I started this mod, it was for a game where I focused on A Rimworld of Magic and made 1 character for each class that uses only mana or stamina (so no ki, or faith or anything). But then I just kept on adding more mods from the workshop (as one is wont to do, when one sees all the amazing content out there) and I kept on integrating, until Thinking Spot became what it is today. Along the way, the characters I envisioned changed from the Olympians (I know, corny, but eh) to some kind of elemental beings, but the main premise remained: zero to hero.

As for the layout of the tech tree, the vanilla one was mainly built by looking at what one needs first, and what can come later. Walls are useful to hide behind, but only if you have weapons. But walls are also useful if you can make a room with them, for which you need a door, or lock yourself inside. That's how I built the tech tree, and with some very loose inspiration from history (I am by no means a historian and even dropped history when going to year 4).

The modded techs I integrated mostly mod by mod, in the beginning. After booting up Rimworld for the 231st time, I started doing two to three, maybe four mods at a time. And now I know quite well what techs are from "vanilla" Thinking Spot and which ones from "modded" Thinking Spot, so that also helps when making decisions on where new stuff is supposed to go when I load up a new collection of 150~200 mods.

As I said before, I'm sorry I took so long to respond, but that was mainly due to playing the scenario for which I made this mod, and after a while getting bored and switching to other games. Now that I thought of another scenario, I'm back and hyped to start making patches again.

I do remember that while playing I kind of blew through all the early techs as well, so I'm also looking into a mod that adds medieval content, to make it less of a reverse-funnel shaped tech tree, and more of a wall shaped tech tree, with multiple lines. Now that I think about it, the tech tree felt a bit too... mod-oriented. It wasn't interconnected. It was just like... here's the tree for Rim of Magic, and here's the tree of Rimatomics, and here's the tree of Ancient Rim... I don't know how long my hype for Rimworld will last this time, as I kinda am a person who cycles through his games, but I do hope it will last long enough to at least make single, mod-oriented patches. And hopefully, in this same period or the next one (but before any official Rimworld updates), I'll be able to make most of the current integrated mods into one story-oriented tech tree. And heck, I might even look into Harmony and Hugslib to make some mod options for that, who knows.

I at least have until September, as then my University years begin, but I hope I can have some great fun seeing my pawns strive to survive and thrive. And of course, keep improving Thinking Spot. I got kinda nostalgic there, at the end :)

And now I wish the emoji on Steam were more like those on your phone keyboard =D

Of course, I definitely hope Uni won't eat all of my time, but from the stories on the internet, the odds are not in my favour...
最后由 PartyCowboy 编辑于; 2020 年 7 月 15 日 下午 12:59
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