STAR WARS™ Empire at War: Gold Pack

STAR WARS™ Empire at War: Gold Pack

EaWX: Thrawn's Revenge 3.4 (Updated April 2nd)
FizzyElf 7 月 21 日 下午 8:35
Why does Thrawn's Revenge feel so small and spam focused?
One of my favorite things about other mods like Yoden Mod was the rush to put out the largest and most efficient warship your faction could produce and use it as a spear tip during later portions of your early campaign and be the first of many that will be seen in the mid to late game but in Thrawn's Revenge it sort of sucks in this aspect. Some factions have heavier vessels they can bring out which will obliterate the smaller ships of other factions in skirmish battles and the balance in campaign is just awful with the AI producing tons of capital ships and fighters but almost never producing anything larger than a home one/Imperial 1 equivalent (the AI seems to dislike using Imperial 2's for some reason) so you never get any mid to late game escalation and producing your largest vessel as fast as possible ends up being a campaign ending event as the AI will never be able to rival that fleet and will only become less capable as more of your fleets reach that level of firepower.

Why is Thrawns revenge so focused on spamming out earlier vessels and against late game escalation? hell, most of the dreadnoughts are locked to the special fleet builder and battle mode so once you hit allegiance/praetor class for the empire for example you are basically finished, not that the AI wants to build those and you can't get any better in skirmishes and the only steps forward for the campaign fleets is to jump to stuff like the sovereign or Viscount class because despite having a ton of cool ships in the mod, most of them can't be built. I don't understand why a mod with so many awesome ships is designed to hide most of them away from the main game and doesn't push the AI to make use of them, sure the dreadnoughts are expensive but at least the larger capital ships should become a regular sight at some point, that was part of the fun with older mods as the variety of ships increased and the scale of the conflict grew, especially seeing those truly monstrous ships appear in skirmish to wreck whatever battle line had formed and create a ton of chaos in the scramble to sink the leviathan.

Is this perhaps a limitation born for the heavy emphasis on creating narrative driven campaigns and a trimmed down skirmish to push players more towards the story than the gameplay/multiplayer?
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JC 7 月 22 日 上午 6:34 
I typically see at least two SSDs from Imperial Remnant factions in TR GC (almost always Pentastar at least).
What difficulty are you playing on? The AI seems to prioritize buying what they can afford with 1 cycle's income vice saving up for what may be more effective. It feels like the AI is intended to earn on Admiral level at least.
Either way, I think the basic AI is rather limited for this game, and was never intended for the great efforts made by the modding community.
FizzyElf 7 月 22 日 上午 9:44 
I generally play on the highest difficulty for skirmish and high or normal for campaign. But considering even the player doesn't end up with most of the bigger ships I think it's somewhat understandable.
Tercio Squares 7 月 28 日 下午 8:24 
Have you tried playing with cruel admiral AI? I've seen them build tons of super ships. It also depends on what factions you fight or play against. Some just don't have super ships.
FizzyElf 7 月 28 日 下午 8:32 
引用自 Tercio Squares
Have you tried playing with cruel admiral AI? I've seen them build tons of super ships. It also depends on what factions you fight or play against. Some just don't have super ships.
True, though it's not like the player can build many either, like for the empire I think the only thing close to a super ship you can spam out is the praetor or secutor and the new republic is stuck with home ones if I remember correctly (been a long time since I played them though, might have changed). Most of the you only have a smaller super ship or you have one of a kind super ships even with the harder AI, you can circumvent the hard limit set on spawning these ships (assuming you have access to them at all). But I avoid the harder AI settings for thrawn and republic at war because that AI will flood the map with units and launches an absurd number of really dumb attacks on targets that don't mean much but you still have to fight them there or else they will get to the point where they spawn so many units that the game will lag pretty badly, sort of like Yoden would on some of the larger campaign maps with all the factions enabled or AOTR will if you play too passively in the early to mid game. I like the idea behind the harder AI but the draw backs of it make it too annoying to use for me.
Corey Loses  [开发者] 9 月 10 日 上午 8:04 
The idea that your largest ships are the best or most efficient is a fundamental misunderstanding which seems to be colouring a lot of the rest of your thought process. The AI on higher difficulties certainly vastly outproduces you. Biggers ships are not fundamentally better, and the way to beat bigger ships isn't "have an even bigger ship than that."

最后由 Corey Loses 编辑于; 9 月 10 日 上午 8:05
FizzyElf 9 月 11 日 下午 2:11 
引用自 Corey Loses
The idea that your largest ships are the best or most efficient is a fundamental misunderstanding which seems to be colouring a lot of the rest of your thought process. The AI on higher difficulties certainly vastly outproduces you. Biggers ships are not fundamentally better, and the way to beat bigger ships isn't "have an even bigger ship than that."
What? The thread is about how few of them show up in the campaign not how effective they are on a fleet by fleet composition basis. And for reference most of my fleets don't even use victory class star destroyers let alone the biggest ships.

If I had a complaint it's that the mod is so hyper focused on spam units that it makes battles incredibly messy and the lack of larger vessels frees up more space for additional spam units to spawn instead as you don't have the larger vessels weighing down the pop count. That aside I would like the limits at least lifted for the player so the player can choose to spend time and effort on the cool giant ships as center pieces for their fleets like for me I would like to spawn Bellators, proto viscounts, etc and some of the super carriers as they are my personal favorites whereas stuff like the sovereign would be nice as one off supers you can build in any campaign once you have enough credits and a high enough spaceport.

I'd additionally like it if the AI would sink some time and energy into these big ships so you can have fun picking them apart with your smaller vessels or have to reroute fleets to deal with them else they steamroll your defenses, problem being the AI could end up building too many and hit their population cap in skirmishes and space battles in campaign.
Nolanstar  [开发者] 9 月 15 日 下午 2:36 
This feels like you're playing a submod, bellators are not 'unavailable' in galactic conquest by any means unless this complaint is that faction X cannot build all 400 space units, which is just the obvious result of RTS design having separate rosters.

EaW's AI is hardcoded to work from top-down in terms of build priority, so the usual problem is them making not enough escorts. Such is the general experience. It's possible you're playing a situation where they are physically constrained by the shipyard levels on their owned planets.

"The player doesn't end up with most of the biggest ships" is again, false. The AI does not get more unit types unlocked than you in the same situation. There are npc units in the game but they are not locked by whether the same faction is being played by an AI or player. Different factions, again, have different rosters and stuff like Allegiances/Praetors/etc are completely buildable with the right shipyard tier and often in multiple faction rosters.
FizzyElf 9 月 16 日 上午 12:10 
引用自 Nolanstar
This feels like you're playing a submod, bellators are not 'unavailable' in galactic conquest by any means unless this complaint is that faction X cannot build all 400 space units, which is just the obvious result of RTS design having separate rosters.

EaW's AI is hardcoded to work from top-down in terms of build priority, so the usual problem is them making not enough escorts. Such is the general experience. It's possible you're playing a situation where they are physically constrained by the shipyard levels on their owned planets.

"The player doesn't end up with most of the biggest ships" is again, false. The AI does not get more unit types unlocked than you in the same situation. There are npc units in the game but they are not locked by whether the same faction is being played by an AI or player. Different factions, again, have different rosters and stuff like Allegiances/Praetors/etc are completely buildable with the right shipyard tier and often in multiple faction rosters.
I have a mod that reduces the cost of everything to 1 credit, makes all building take 1 second and removes the normal pop cost, but I don't have it on all the time, I use it for crazy skirmish matches.

That said, I think there is still a disconnect here. I am not asking for every faction to have access to every unit nor am I requesting changes to the faction rosters. As for the quote which I believe is in reference to this "most of them can't be built" which was mainly referring to how limited skirmish is and the fact that in a campaign you will be locked out of using and seeing most of the ships, the AI won't build them and focuses it's attention towards a more consistent roster of ships and the player in no way can build all of the ships actually available to the faction, the worst offenders being the new Republic and imperials which have ton of cool ships that the AI doesn't use and others both the AI and the player can't access.



引用自 Nolanstar
Different factions, again, have different rosters and stuff like Allegiances/Praetors/etc are completely buildable with the right shipyard tier and often in multiple faction rosters.
Also I made mention of this when I created the original post, even stated those two ships as examples because they are the largest generic ships the empire might field in skirmish and often going to be the largest and most frequently used in campaign until you get access to a special ship like the eclipse, which is sad as there are a lot of similarly sized ships available for the empire that would be nice to see and it would be really nice to see the AI make better use of these vessels rather than capping out with star destroyers and their equivalents like home one. It would diversify the fleet comps more in the late game and provide some tough nuts to crack amidst lighter vessels even if those too happen to be capital ship class.
引用自 FizzyElf
That said, I think there is still a disconnect here. I am not asking for every faction to have access to every unit nor am I requesting changes to the faction rosters. As for the quote which I believe is in reference to this "most of them can't be built" which was mainly referring to how limited skirmish is and the fact that in a campaign you will be locked out of using and seeing most of the ships, the AI won't build them and focuses it's attention towards a more consistent roster of ships and the player in no way can build all of the ships actually available to the faction, the worst offenders being the new Republic and imperials which have ton of cool ships that the AI doesn't use and others both the AI and the player can't access.
There is absolutely a disconnect here but it's hard to say what it is. So... correct me if I'm wrong here. As a note I am speaking as someone who primarily only plays GC.

Your issue, as I read it, is that factions do not build all of their units or do not have access to all of their units. We'll use the NR as our point of discussion since you brought them up.

The New Republic has a very large roster of unique units.

Some are accessed only as mission rewards (The MAS 2xB, more affectionately known as the Turbo Blimp as an example) but these are not regular roster units. The AI does get them, as they automatically receive mission rewards when missions are issued. However some mission rewards, like the Turbo Blimp, are rare and so you don't see them very often.

Most of the other units? Those are research projects and all of the research projects are date gated so you aren't going to see them unless you extend a GC until they start appearing or start a GC in a later date where the NR will already have them researched.

-----

As for this:

引用自 FizzyElf
Also I made mention of this when I created the original post, even stated those two ships as examples because they are the largest generic ships the empire might field in skirmish and often going to be the largest and most frequently used in campaign until you get access to a special ship like the eclipse, which is sad as there are a lot of similarly sized ships available for the empire that would be nice to see and it would be really nice to see the AI make better use of these vessels rather than capping out with star destroyers and their equivalents like home one. It would diversify the fleet comps more in the late game and provide some tough nuts to crack amidst lighter vessels even if those too happen to be capital ship class.

There are some parts of this that are easy. The AI will absolutely build its SSDs. It will absolutely build its battlecruisers. The question becomes whether or not it can. These are ships that are locked behind owning a functional Tier 4 shipyard. If they don't have one they can't.

And if they do own a Tier 4 shipyard? The question becomes whether or not they can afford to. The AI has to actually build the ships it uses. That means needing money to afford them and these are not cheap ships. Unless the AI is allowed to build up for several cycles without interruption or you turn on a higher difficulty level the AI is unlikely to build that many of them.

And then there's this specific bit:

引用自 FizzyElf
until you get access to a special ship like the eclipse, which is sad as there are a lot of similarly sized ships available for the empire that would be nice to see

Which... I'm not entirely sure what you mean by? This is probably part of the disconnect. Like I am 100% unsure what you could possibly mean by this that isn't "I want to build all of the SSDs/Battlecruisers" which isn't what I think you mean?

Like... of the generic Imperial battlecruisers and SSDs only 2 are unbuildable. The Communication Battlecruiser and the Aramadia. All the others are buildable by one of the factions. But that's the kicker. None of the factions have access to all of them. So depending on who you're playing as or who you're fighting you're not going to see all of them because of how the rosters are split up.
FizzyElf 9 月 16 日 下午 8:43 
引用自 FizzyElf
That said, I think there is still a disconnect here. I am not asking for every faction to have access to every unit nor am I requesting changes to the faction rosters. As for the quote which I believe is in reference to this "most of them can't be built" which was mainly referring to how limited skirmish is and the fact that in a campaign you will be locked out of using and seeing most of the ships, the AI won't build them and focuses it's attention towards a more consistent roster of ships and the player in no way can build all of the ships actually available to the faction, the worst offenders being the new Republic and imperials which have ton of cool ships that the AI doesn't use and others both the AI and the player can't access.
There is absolutely a disconnect here but it's hard to say what it is. So... correct me if I'm wrong here. As a note I am speaking as someone who primarily only plays GC.

Your issue, as I read it, is that factions do not build all of their units or do not have access to all of their units. We'll use the NR as our point of discussion since you brought them up.

The New Republic has a very large roster of unique units.

Some are accessed only as mission rewards (The MAS 2xB, more affectionately known as the Turbo Blimp as an example) but these are not regular roster units. The AI does get them, as they automatically receive mission rewards when missions are issued. However some mission rewards, like the Turbo Blimp, are rare and so you don't see them very often.

Most of the other units? Those are research projects and all of the research projects are date gated so you aren't going to see them unless you extend a GC until they start appearing or start a GC in a later date where the NR will already have them researched.

-----

As for this:

引用自 FizzyElf
Also I made mention of this when I created the original post, even stated those two ships as examples because they are the largest generic ships the empire might field in skirmish and often going to be the largest and most frequently used in campaign until you get access to a special ship like the eclipse, which is sad as there are a lot of similarly sized ships available for the empire that would be nice to see and it would be really nice to see the AI make better use of these vessels rather than capping out with star destroyers and their equivalents like home one. It would diversify the fleet comps more in the late game and provide some tough nuts to crack amidst lighter vessels even if those too happen to be capital ship class.

There are some parts of this that are easy. The AI will absolutely build its SSDs. It will absolutely build its battlecruisers. The question becomes whether or not it can. These are ships that are locked behind owning a functional Tier 4 shipyard. If they don't have one they can't.

And if they do own a Tier 4 shipyard? The question becomes whether or not they can afford to. The AI has to actually build the ships it uses. That means needing money to afford them and these are not cheap ships. Unless the AI is allowed to build up for several cycles without interruption or you turn on a higher difficulty level the AI is unlikely to build that many of them.

And then there's this specific bit:

引用自 FizzyElf
until you get access to a special ship like the eclipse, which is sad as there are a lot of similarly sized ships available for the empire that would be nice to see

Which... I'm not entirely sure what you mean by? This is probably part of the disconnect. Like I am 100% unsure what you could possibly mean by this that isn't "I want to build all of the SSDs/Battlecruisers" which isn't what I think you mean?

Like... of the generic Imperial battlecruisers and SSDs only 2 are unbuildable. The Communication Battlecruiser and the Aramadia. All the others are buildable by one of the factions. But that's the kicker. None of the factions have access to all of them. So depending on who you're playing as or who you're fighting you're not going to see all of them because of how the rosters are split up.
It's more that I want the roster just prior to the SSD and SSD equivalents like the Eclipse for example, to be more widely available and thus allow for more diverse fleet comps. So when I say "until you get access to a special ship like the eclipse" I am referring to how you are stuck with the preator and allegiance until you get access to the more advanced one off ships or the special missions are finished which makes the fleets you and the AI build very similar from campaign to campaign. For example there are a bunch of carriers for the empire that are of a similar size to the allegiance and preator that I would love to see the AI field and love to use for myself more regularly but they like a ton of other ships are blocked off rather than being something you can build at a tier 4 space station (granted tier 1-3 have similar problems with ships of similar size and roles being left out and thus leaving little room for more diverse fleets which is something I think would both be more enjoyable to use and fight against and fits decently well with the setting as star wars legends at the time was pumping out new ship designs in damn near every comic and novel they released.

However I do dislike it a lot more at the latter portions of the campaign as it feels like enemy fleets get less varied and your own fleets become much the same as you can't decide for yourself to replace those tier 4 designs on a whim or add your own SSD's when you want to give the fleet doing most of your conquering something special, you instead have to wait and depending on how that particular campaign goes it could take a while of primarily the same fleets slamming into one another over and over. (Obviously skirmish suffers to but there are more aspects playing into that.)
MadnessX789 9 月 18 日 下午 8:53 
becase it is also keep in mind this game actively cheats against you and the way this mod is set up dosent help you one bit and yeah star destroyers and SSD class ship suck in this mod like he says in his vids they are big bullys they cant fight fleets event hou that what there were made for in lore
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