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Here's WHY You are HATED for Using Flamer

由 ModdedMarionette 制作

This guide was not written to insult anyone, but to genuinely provide information for hated Flamer users, allowing them to be more aware of what is actually happening and why they are hated, so both parties, the ones hating and the ones being hated, can be happy.
Many times have I seen Flamer users being hated and not given enough information on why, leading to them believing that they are simply dealing with toxicity and continue their mistakes. Neither party is at fault in this case, because there is a lot to cover and most Flamer users' mistakes cannot be fixed with just one or two sentences.

Also, if the lobby is private or anything, do whatever you want. Me and most others do not care what you do and how you play on your own.
However, since you're here, it is pretty safe to assume that the lobbies you are being hated on are mostly public high-level lobbies or simply lobbies with any experienced players in them.
(When I say "experienced players" I don't mean it lightly. I refer to those who fully understand the meta and can easily handle to up to Brutal ASBI and more by efficiently cooperating with fellow experienced players)

Once again, don't bother coming at me trying to defend the use of Flamers. I am trying to help, not trying to insult anyone. If these tips are too much for your ego to handle, you are free to leave, as this guide is for those who are willing to actually listen and improve. And for those who do, please read thoroughly any section of this guide that you did not understand, and I mean it: There could be key details that are important to why YOU are hated and you do not want to miss them.

Note:
I have lost count of how many times I snapped dealing with flamer spammers, and if I remember correctly, this guide is a product of one of those times.
You have oblivious flamer spammers absolutely ruining every game they barge into and refusing to listen to a single word, and you also have ignorant players from similar skill levels defending flamer spammers' use of flamers because they think we are being "toxic" just because we called them out for their mistakes.
Point is, my tone in this guide may sound aggressive to certain people. I, however, cannot be bothered to rephrase my words just to please people. Whatever in this guide you may feel offended by, know that it's is nothing personal, it's just me losing it.

奖励

创建者

ModdedMarionette
游戏中
Warhammer 40,000: Space Marine 2

类型: 合作, 基本游戏玩法, 多人游戏, 武器

Languages: 英语

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更新日期

2023 年 7 月 4 日上午 2:17

2024 年 12 月 3 日下午 8:59

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指南索引

总览

Edit: About August 2024 Update

Long Story Short

What Did You Do

Flamer is NOT Useful for Teamplay

Flamer's TINY DPS

The Flamer Deals MUCH Greater Friendly Fire Damage than You Think

Why Rushing with Flamer is VERY HATED

Don't Use Flamers Because Someone Else Did

When CAN the Flamer be Good Then?

The Flamer LIMITS Your Skills

A Recent Nerf to Afterburn

Remember Your Role as Vegas

Flamer Users Stealing Ammo from Grenade Launcher Users

How to Identify a "Flamer Noob"

Response to a Comment from a 3k hrs Player

Conclusion

What To Do Now

留言

Edit: About August 2024 Update

August 2024 Update introduced the change where flamers now instantly ignite teammates upon dealing friendly fire.
Yes, I was the main force behind this change, supported by players from all skill levels, including new and average players who actively used flamers.
You can learn about it in detail here, but other than that, know that this guide was written before the update in question.
(General idea should still apply)

Long Story Short

Long story short, bringing Flamer is equivalent to a middle finger to teamwork.

Flamer is quite decent of a self-defense tool (not a weapon because its DPS is pathetic), with, however, a very high risk of, not only friendly fire, but also disruptions to organized teamplays.

As soon as you are no longer playing solo, as soon as you have a single teammate with you on your team, you are immediately putting them at risk by bringing the flamer. One easy way to avoid such a risk is to just never use the Flamer, but at that point you should have just not brought it with you to begin with (unless the map requires you to bring one for biomasses).

I will be explaining everything you need to know about the Flamer in details in the rest of this guide.

What Did You Do

So, did you get hated for using the Flamer and everyone was too lazy (or you just never listen) to tell you why?

Here are the main most likely reasons why you are hated for using Flamer:
- You dealt friendly fire, and likely ignited teammates. If worse, multiple times.
- You rushed ahead with the Flamer (maybe thinking you cannot deal friendly fire if you are ahead of everyone), not realizing that you prematurely triggered things that were triggered earlier than ideal. (This could also be why you are hated even when not using Flamers)
- You stole ammo from Grenade Launcher users, who have the highest priority in picking up ammo, for your Flamer, which has a low priority (especially when you harm the team with it) in picking up ammo.
- Others gave you better options to do whatever you were trying to do and you failed or refused to listen.

Furthermore, the reason you tend to get hated a lot more on high-level lobbies than low-level ones for using Flamer is not because high-level players are just more toxic than low-level players, but because high-level difficulties are much more punishing to bad plays and friendly fire, and the Flamer is very good at doing those. (High-level players also tend to be much better at spotting bad plays.)

Flamer is NOT Useful for Teamplay

Let me make this very clear: Flamer is NOT useful for team play (if you have a good team to begin with). Period. They are SITUATIONAL and useful in not many instances.

Damage? There are plenty of weapons, including the most basic assault rifle, that can deal more damage than the Flamer.

Crowd control? A good Jaeger (best at it), Crash, or Sarge with Grenade Launcher can deal massive AOE damage and a good Wolfe (best at it) or Wildcat with Minigun can hold off hordes of aliens (especially in the back).

Stun support? Trust me, you will give more damage to teammates than support. Just use Tesla Cannon if you really want to support. The Tesla Cannon stuns much harder, provides much more immediate support, can trivialize fights against Shieldbugs, and free of being able to deal friendly fire. The Tesla Cannon indeed cannot affect as many aliens as the Flamer can at once, but you should not end up in situations where you need to stun as many aliens in the first place. If you do and you had no other options such as Freeze Grenades to defend yourself, that is not your fault.

A good team with right weapons can do all of above and much better (which is also why you rarely see any experienced players use Flamers, especially on high difficulties). If you do not have said "good team" and keep finding yourselves losing, trust me, not using Flamer is not the reason. Just play easier difficulties and practice real weapons and team work.

Flamer's TINY DPS

I am amazed by how many times have I seen players attempting to kill aliens such as Rangers, Mortarbugs, or even Shieldbugs with a Flamer.

Why bother? Even the most basic assault rifle has a higher dps than the Flamer. Hell, even punching can deal much more damage than the Flamer can.

Don't ever let damage be the reason you use the Flamer, because that would be stupid.

The Flamer Deals MUCH Greater Friendly Fire Damage than You Think

You may be thinking, "I 'puffed' my flames instead of holding it down, I thought that deals small friendly fire?"

First of all, every "puff" can and will deal friendly fire, whether you like it or not. However, most other weapons can do too, so what makes the Flamer extremely dangerous to teammates compared to others?

Ignition. When you damage any teammate with enough burn damage via the Flamer, you can ignite them. The damage it takes to ignite a teammate is even lower when hardcore friendly fire is enabled and non-existent on difficulties with immediate-ignition enabled.
Ignited teammates take damage over-time, obviously. Without medical attention, it can severely injure (or even kill) a full-health teammate and basically mark any low-health teammate for death.
If you do not wish to be blamed for overlooking a burning teammate that you ignited, start with not using the Flamer.

Those that are aware of the Flamer's alt-fire extinguisher may say: "It's okay I can just extinguish anyone I ignite."
To that (besides the fact that extinguisher projectile can sometimes be difficult to work with and struggle to actually reach ignited teammates) I want to ask: "Why ignite them in the first place?"
As mentioned above, everything the Flamer does can be done much better by many other things. All of mentioned attributes above are no longer reasons to possess a Flamer that can ignite teammates in the first place.

Why Rushing with Flamer is VERY HATED

Did you start using Flamer because you saw experienced players used it to rush through hordes of aliens with ease? If so, then you have very likely overlooked the fact that they were alone and have no teammates (if not, they are likely not experienced players, but fellow hated Flamer users like you).

Every map has triggers everywhere, with a good number of them being dangerous to trigger when unprepared.
When you rush ahead with the Flamer, you can be triggering many triggers too early and leaving the team you left behind to deal with a lot of trouble that they do not wish to deal with yet.
With Flamer's tiny DPS, you cannot kill anything either, meaning there is no quick way to clear the path ahead of your team and have no choice but to leave all that trouble for your team to deal with.

Basically, you are killing your team by rushing ahead and not able to kill anything you prematurely triggered with your Flamer's tiny DPS.

Don't Use Flamers Because Someone Else Did

None of your reason to use the Flamer should ever be other players' use of Flamers.

There are two types of people who use Flamers:
1. Experienced players who know exactly what they are doing with that Flamer and can immediately react if they do accidentally ignite any teammate.
2. Fellow hated Flamer users like you.

You have no reason to mimic whatever the experienced players are doing because they would swap to a better weapon if they have a choice: Majority of the times, they did not pick the Flamer because it is a good choice, but because they have no other choice. Even if they use it for fun, at the very least they are fully aware of the damage Flamers can do to the team and can swiftly react if they do cause any damage.
(This is also why I am very bias toward players I recognize as skilled players: I know they will use the Flamer correctly and will swiftly fix any mistakes they do end up making.)

And for obvious reasons, you have no reason to mimic fellow hated Flamer users.

When CAN the Flamer be Good Then?

When you are the last marine standing: You have no teammates to ignite.

A good team is what makes the Flamer obsolete, but when back against the wall, the Flamer could indeed be the last resort, and it CAN clutch games IF situation demands no killing efficiency and has large enough of space to work with.

However, this is by no means a good reason to keep one on you "just in case." Why end up in that situation in the first place instead of keeping every role on the team as well equipped as possible? You want your team to die?
If you reach the point where you always expect yourself to be the last marine standing, you either rushed far ahead, triggering everything and getting the entire team killed because you can't kill anything with the Flamer, or the difficulty is just too much for your team to handle. Either way, it means your team is screwed, by the difficulty or by you.

Also, the Flamer is effective against Parasites and decent against Xenomites, can be a valid pick if no one on your team is using the Grenade Launcher and being good at it. Otherwise, let the Grenade Launcher do the job.

The Flamer LIMITS Your Skills

Many may say, when they used the Flamer, the drones seem to die to just one puff of flame because the afterburn can finish the job. That makes it good right?

First of all, if killing drones in a damage-over-time fashion is all you can do, then you should really just stick with solo games.

Second, and more importantly, difficulties above Normal already demands greater killing efficiency due to the increased health and speed of the aliens. When you go above Hard, the Flamer already starts to struggle to do what you claim it does the best.

If you are going to stick to a weapon that is only "good" on easier difficulties, then don't whine when there are people calling you noob.

A Recent Nerf to Afterburn

Due to a recent update, burning drones are no longer hindered as much by burning as before, meaning they preserve a bit more of their speed when lit on fire.

Furthermore, they are staggered by burning at a slower rate, meaning they have much greater windows of time to do what they wish to do.
This allows drones to score a lot more hits than they previously could while burning, and because the staggering "resets" their animation, their clawing also becomes much more erratic and much less predictable.

So, if you lighting drones on fire with no particular purposes other than for the sake of it, you could actually be sabotaging the team, especially creating trouble for an experienced Vegas player who would be mostly engaging in close-quarter combat, by creating much more unpredictable enemies.

Remember Your Role as Vegas

Those that have learned enough about the meta know that bringing the Chainsaw as Vegas is a must and nothing else is required to play his role.

For that reason, the choice of secondary weapon has a lot of freedom. Most of the time when there are good Grenade Launcher users on the team, experienced players tend to bring Ammo Satchels for their Grenade Launchers to use. If there are no one using Grenade Launchers, they bring one themselves. They also bring the Flamer as their secondary if the map requires it to be equipped.

However, if you are playing as Vegas and do equip Flamer to accompany your Chainsaw simply because you like to use the Flamer, you MUST REMEMBER your TRUE ROLE!

Vegas is the tip of the spear, the very reason your team is able to push forward. He is the tank at the very front of the team and his Chainsaw is the reason he can do his job well.
Therefore, make sure you ONLY use the Flamer IF the situation calls and not because you want to. The Chainsaw should be the weapon you want to use whenever possible as Vegas. Always remember that the Chainsaw is your true primary weapon, not the Flamer.

Flamer Users Stealing Ammo from Grenade Launcher Users

The Grenade Launcher has the highest priority when it comes to picking up ammo. Every Grenade Launcher clip can dish out massive damage and excellent crowd control, and every ammo pickup refills ALL clips for the Grenade Launcher.

You pick up 20% of the ammo stash for a single clip to your Flamer, to do what? Ignite and kill a few drones? Burn some other aliens with the tiny DPS for the fun of it? Potentially sabotaging the team by creating more unpredictable enemies?
That 20% could have been 18 rounds of grenades, which can without a doubt do so much more than merely 80 units of Flamer fuel. Do not steal any ammo from Grenade Launcher users until you are certain no one is coming back for it or specifically told you can. This rule also applies to all the other weapons as the Flamer is not the only weapon with a lower priority than the Grenade Launcher.
(It's just that you tend to attract more hate when stealing ammo with the Flamer since you are already hated for using it in the first place.)

How to Identify a "Flamer Noob"

Some may ask, how do you distinguish between a veteran using the flamer for a reason and a noob dooming the team with a flamer?

If the player using the flamer:
- Attempts to fire the flamer at anywhere remotely close to a teammate
- Is actively using the flamer at the front of the team
- Possibly rushed ahead of the team alone
- Ignited teammates without immediately reacting to it
You have spotted a flamer noob.

If the player using the flamer:
- Is always at the back of the team
- Rarely uses the flamer for other than biomass if not at the back of the team
- Always focuses on firing the flamer toward the flank of the team and trusts the team to deal with the front and trusts tesla medics to deal with enemies in between the team
- Never really ignited anyone
- Immediately reacts with the flamer's extinguisher (if they aren't occupied by anything else) when someone is ignited, even if they are not the cause of the ignition
- Only rushes ahead with the flamer because they need to split up with the team to solo a certain portion of the map that the team is not proceeding to
You have spotted an experienced player.

Response to a Comment from a 3k hrs Player

I have this comment from Frodo, who had around 2.5k hours on the game at the time of the comment was made.
It brings a valid argument, and I believe both the comment and my response should not be buried within the comment section.

Frodo:

hi 3k hours vet here, the flamer is actually S tier for brutal, vets just play too much ASBI where flamer is indeed bad and when they do visit vanilla brutal they stick with their pure damage builds cause it works and is faster than flamer brutal is alot easier and does not require that much damage/risk, trading in damage for more safety is what most brutal teams could benefit from. non veteran players make many mistakes with pure damage builds. this is where flamer gains value, it can instantly aoe stun a whole horde, whereas the tesla cant and the launcher cant up close, it can also kill a horde, hold the front/backline completely solo when needed and has many other uses and utility to reduce kill pressure, ammo and panic from the other roles as its kind of a jack of all trades. very versatile for just 1 weaponslot if you dont need damage why risk it? just take more safety!!! i mean taking 2 grenade launchers and blowing whole screens of aliens to bits is fun, i get it :)

My response:

You forgot to consider the fact that all that new players learn from spamming flamer is solo rushing instead of teamwork, with most of them completely ignoring the existence of friendly fire. You have 3k hours to understand the game, meaning you have a much greater understanding of what can you do with a flamer than those with 3 hours. The only thing I agree with you is solo holding the back with a flamer, as that is something I see being done on ASBI or beyond. (But seeing how all the flamer spammers have been spewing flame at anywhere but backline, I would like them to break their bad habits first.) However, I do disagree with pretty much everything else you brought up. The flamer's DPS is way too low to push front, even lower than basic rifles. I am no stranger to many situations where inefficiency leads to the increase in pressure the team has to deal with, leading to an inevitable team wipe. You can *HOLD* front *for a short while*, but at 90%+ of the time, you are supposed to be *PUSHING* front. Furthermore, flamer is also unfit to be stun support in the middle of the team, as the potential of friendly fire is much higher when you are surrounded by teammates. This is also why Tesla Cannon is a much more popular stun support weapon than flamers among veterans. Now, I *FULLY* believe you can do a LOT with a flamer in *YOUR* hands, but you have to understand that you have 3k hours to fully understand how to prevent friendly fire with this thing as much as you possibly can, and these flamer spammers do not. You are most definitely correct that the flamer is a low risk weapon that has "safety" to make up for their lack of damage. But did you forget that you have teammates? With a flamer newbie on the team, what falls upon the teammates are everything BUT safety. Solo rushing front is hated for reasons I have already stated. Holding front is pointless when you are supposed to push majority of the time. Not to mention that it cannot even hold the front that long, with its low DPS forcing the team to backstep when a horde beyond the size of an Onslaught's assaults the team. Don't even get me started on stun support. All these flamer spammers have "stunned" are teammates when they are in the middle of the team. Apparently it takes thousands of hours to learn that friendly fire exists. I would love for these guys to just stick to the back of the team. But these trigger-happy peeps have been willing to do anything but holding the backline. Not to mention their lack of map knowledge that results in them struggling to keep up with the team when in the back. Realize that there is a huge difference between flamers in a hands of a 3k hours player and a 3 hours player. This isn't a topic on "flamer is bad" because that is not necessarily true, especially in YOUR hands. This is a topic of "new players unable to realize the damage they keep dealing to their teammates and ruining everyone's fun." I have no problem with considering *your* flamer to be S-tier in Brutal. But do consider that the flamer spammers I refer to are doing anything but what you are doing with flamers. This guide would never exist if all flamer users have 3k hours in this game.

I forgot to bring this up in my response, but a Grenade Launcher user is supposed to have someone covering their front to begin with. If you're doing everything right, front of the team should have a Vegas chainsaw to cover, and the back of the team should have a Wolfe minigun to cover, creating a "fortress" where Grenade Launchers can "mortar" attack from a distance.
Tesla users do not have to AOE stun because that isn't their job when you have the front and back cover. They come in when a few stragglers slip through the tanks and up close to Grenade Launcher users (or anyone who cannot immediately defend themselves in general) to provide immediate stun, providing breathing room large enough for experienced players to do a lot of things.
If either of the Grenade Launcher or Tesla Cannon users in a team always have enemies up close to them, then their team is practically useless.

tl;dr:
Frodo has 3k hours of experience to know how to prevent friendly fire better than a flamer spammer can (I hope).
Frodo's strat, in the hands of any player without a deep understanding of flamer, completely throws teamwork out of the window.
Such "safety" sacrifices the safety of the entire rest of the team.

Conclusion

The Flamer is extremely dangerous in terms of dealing friendly fire, especially on higher difficulties.
The Flamer deals very little damage to aliens on the contrary of the friendly fire damage it can do.
Players rushing ahead with the Flamer can kill the team by prematurely triggering many triggers and not killing any of the trouble with the Flamer's tiny DPS.
The Flamer is only used by either experienced players who know what they are doing or fellow hated Flamer users like you, making it pointless to mimic anyone else's use of the Flamer.

My advise?
You should only use the Flamer after you learn how to live without the Flamer.

What To Do Now

What you decide to do after reading this guide is entirely up to you.

You can stick to the use of Flamers and get hated on whenever you make a mistake with it. Just never whine about being hated for no reason because now you know the reasons. In details.

You can also choose to learn the proper ways to work as a team and learn the proper weapons to use, building the foundation you need to further improve your skills in this game and eventually handle higher difficulties better.
A good place to start is this excellent guide describing the role of every marine:
https://psteamcommunity.yuanyoumao.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1701903761

By no means do I tolerate any unnecessary toxicity that takes any hatred toward a personal level.
I hope all of you can block out all negativity and not let it affect your gaming experience.
At the end of the day, we just want to have fun, and this guide is here to teach you why you ruined others' fun.

If I sound aggressive in any ways in this guide, I apologize, as I have grown way too tired from all the Flamer spammers and ran out of patience long ago. You can tell from the fact that I wrote this entire guide on this topic.
However, I won't bother protecting anyone's feelings. I prefer getting straight to the point than pretending to be nice, and I hope these tips can help both the ones being hated for using Flamers by pointing out their mistakes for them to learn from, and the ones affected by the former by reducing the number of Flamer spammers.

19 条留言

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ModdedMarionette [作者] 2024 年 5 月 20 日下午 10:33

@doktor_pavlov_molodec
Okay? Thank you for taking your time of the day to tell me you are a troll?
I couldn't care less if you regret nothing. This guide is meant to enlighten those who genuinely do not want to be a nuisance to a whole lobby of the situation, not for making trolls regret trolling nor have I ever bothered to try to. I also don't really need to write a guide on why trolls are hated in video games in general.

I am surprised that you are even here to begin with, since I wouldn't expect a troll to actually take their time looking up and reading this guide.

Surely you didn't come here just to leave "mean" comments? That would be hilariously pathetic.

❤️️ $weet_Nipple 2024 年 5 月 20 日下午 10:02

okay Im sorry for killing you. but i still regret nothing lol

ModdedMarionette [作者] 2024 年 5 月 20 日下午 5:44

@doktor_pavlov_molodec @Kisel
I just played with you flamer spammers an hour ago and I see you guys here? The fact that you guys are here is really curious lol. I suppose I thank you guys for recognizing you are hated.

Either way, I know for a fact that this has already helped numerous people, and that isn't something I require your approval to be true.

I understand that you may be brainrotten to the point beyond reasoning, so you are more than welcomed to leave. Leaving "nobody cares" comments only shows me you are insecure about something.

This guide isn't written for trolls. Sorry.

❤️️ $weet_Nipple 2024 年 5 月 20 日下午 5:22

nobody cares about this loll

シ|Hasu|ン 2024 年 5 月 20 日下午 5:20

Nobody care lol

NickFishingRod 2024 年 5 月 14 日下午 12:35

Even tho i rarely use the flamer, i am "saving" this just in case

ModdedMarionette [作者] 2023 年 12 月 8 日上午 9:43

No. It's anti-flamer-spammer not anti-flamer. There's a big difference.

Hagon Wyvon 2023 年 12 月 8 日上午 4:44

certified anti-flamer propaganda

ModdedMarionette [作者] 2023 年 11 月 19 日上午 12:14

This guide would never exist if all flamer users have 3k hours in this game.

ModdedMarionette [作者] 2023 年 11 月 19 日上午 12:13

Realize that there is a huge difference between flamers in a hands of a 3k hours player and a 3 hours player.

This isn't a topic on "flamer is bad" because that is not necessarily true, especially in YOUR hands. This is a topic of "new players unable to realize the damage they keep dealing to their teammates and ruining everyone's fun."

I have no problem with considering *your* flamer to be S-tier in Brutal. But do consider that the flamer spammers I refer to are doing anything but what you are doing with flamers.

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