STAR WARS™ Knights of the Old Republic™

STAR WARS™ Knights of the Old Republic™

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Why Dueling is Better than Two Weapon Fighting
由 Atlas 制作
Why Dueling is better than Two Weapon Fighting throughout the majority of the game
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TL;DR
Dueling gives you immediate benefits to your chance to hit and chance not to get hit, these bonuses are significantly better for the first half of the game, near the endgame characters that are fully specialised in melee combat benefit more from Two Weapon Fighting but the extra damage isn't enough to be worth it
Explanation
The Two Weapon Fighting Feat



















Benefit: One extra attack with the offhand weapon per round
Dual Wield Penalty:
  • Two-Weapon Fighting -6 (main hand) / -6 (off hand)
  • Improved Two-Weapon Fighting -4 (main hand) / -4 (off hand)
  • Master Two-Weapon Fighting -2 (main hand) / -2 (off hand)
The Dueling Feat

+1-3 Attack +1-3 Defence when using a single weapon
This is controversial but in my experience Dueling is better than Two Weapon Fighting, on paper Two Weapon Fighting looks superior because of the extra swing per round which equals more damage but in practicality the bonuses from Dueling are better, lets compare,

Why Dueling is better:

Two Weapon Fighting example with a Balanced Double Bladed Lightsabre at max level with no crystals and 30 Strength:
  • Attack 1 (Base): 2d10+10 Damage, -2 Attack
  • Attack 2 (Offhand): 2d10+10 Damage, +0 Attack
  • Attack 3 (Flurry): 2d10+10 Damage, -2 Attack
  • Attack 4 (Force Speed): 2d10+10 Damage, -2 Attack
  • Attack 5 (Force Speed): 2d10+10 Damage, -2 Attack
Total:
  • 8d10+40 Damage (80), -2 Attack
  • 2d10+10 Damage (20), +0 Attack

Dueling example at max level with no crystals and 30 Strength:
  • Attack 1 (Base): 2d8+10 Damage, +3 Attack
  • Attack 2 (Flurry): 2d8+10 Damage, +3 Attack
  • Attack 3 (Force Speed): 2d8+10 Damage, +3 Attack
  • Attack 4 (Force Speed): 2d8+10 Damage, +3 Attack
Total:
  • 8d8+40 Damage (72), +3 Attack

On paper the 100 Damage looks so much better compared to 72 damage but in reality you are not putting out all that damage because you are missing more often, lets calculate how much damage we do to a real enemy in the most favourable conditions possible for a Two Weapon Fighting user:

Darth Malak (Star Forge)
Defence: 38

Our average offensive power with Two Weapon Fighting (30 STR):
1d20
+20 (Level 20 Soldier/Guardian)
+10 (30 Strength)
8d10+40+44 Damage (124), +36 Attack, Hit roll = 37-56 (95% hit rate)
2d10+10+11 Damage (31), +34 Attack, Hit roll = 35-54 (95% hit rate)
Average Damage = 124*0.95 + 31*0.95 = 147.25 DPS *1.05 Crit chance = 154.6 DPS
(Crystals: Solari + Upari)

Our average offensive power with Dueling (30 STR):
1d20
+20 (Level 20 Soldier/Guardian)
+10 (30 Strength)
8d8+40+44 Damage (116), +39 Attack, Hit roll = 40-59 (95% hit rate)
Average Damage = 116*0.95 = 110.2 DPS * 1.1 Crit chance = 121.2 DPS
(Crystals: Solari + Upari)

A 27.6% damage boost for the Two Weapon Fighting user, even though Two Weapon Fighting is slightly better at the end of the game the downside in the early game of missing a large percentage of your attacks makes the extra endgame power not really worth it.

Dueling benefits you more in the early game when you will find it hard to hit with Two Weapon Fighting because of the very large penalties to hit, the +3 to Defence will also keep you alive much better.

On a character that isn't min-maxed to the extreme for melee combat like the example above Dueling is also far superior and will often result in more DPS than Two Weapon Fighting.

On the opposite spectrum here is an early game example of combat against a difficult opponent:

Sith Governor (Sith Base - Taris)
Defence: 19

Our average offensive power with Two Weapon Fighting:
1d20
+8 (Level 8 Soldier)
+2 (14 Strength)
-4 Main hand / -4 Off hand (Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
Echani Ritual Brand
2d6+3 Damage (9), +9 Attack, Hit roll = 10-29 (60% hit rate)
2d6+3 Damage (9), +7 Attack, Hit roll = 8-27 (50% hit rate)
Average Damage = 9*0.6 + 9*0.5 = 9.9 DPS *1.05 Crit chance = 10.4 DPS

Our average offensive power with Dueling:
1d20
+8 (Level 8 Soldier)
+2(14 Strength)
+2 (Improved Dueling)
Prototype Vibroblade - Upgraded
1d10+6 Damage (11), +15 Attack, Hit roll = 16-35 (80% hit rate)
Average Damage = 11*0.8 = 8.8 DPS *1.1 Crit chance = 9.7 DPS

Only a 7.2% damage increase, forgoing it in favour of Dueling for +Defence will ensure you get hit less and therefore are more likely to survive and defeat the enemy.

Lets determine the effectiveness of +Defence against this example enemy,

Our Defence:
10 - Base
7 - Light Battle Armor
2 - Dexterity Bonus
2 - Dueling
Without Dueling = 19
With Dueling = 21

Sith Governor Attack = 14
Hit roll = 15-24
Chance to hit without Dueling = 80%
Chance to hit with Dueling = 70%
VP = 96
Effective VP without Dueling = 96/0.8=120
Effective VP with Dueling = 96/0.7=137
= 14% Increased durability
The effectiveness of the extra defence increases exponentially the more defence you have / the less attack the enemy has, so lets test this with an weaker enemy in the same area,


Sith Trooper Attack = 7
Hit roll = 8-27
Chance to hit without Dueling = 60%
Chance to hit with Dueling = 50%
VP = 96
Effective VP without Dueling = 96/0.6=160
Effective VP with Dueling = 96/0.5=192
= 20% Increased durability

Finally, anecdotally people who speedrun the game generally* (corrected) go for Dueling over Two Weapon Fighting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04eajgeTrsk







61 条留言
Jawajoey 9 月 28 日 下午 6:26 
The best argument for Dueling comes from abilities that grant extra attacks, which use your main hand attack. So the stronger your main hand attack, the stronger your extra attacks. Which means the more extra attacks you get, the better Dueling becomes. Four attacks with a 65% accuracy are better than 5 attacks with 50% accuracy.

However, there are some problems with this analysis.

First, the value of more accuracy only matters if you need more accuracy. 5 attacks with a 95% chance to hit are better than 4 attacks with a 95% chance to hit.

Second, Double bladed weapons are just OP, since they also do more raw damage. Enough so to make up for their lower crit range and accuracy.

I like Single Saber. I like Dueling. I like the style. And I think they're underrated. With Speed and Flurry, the DPS difference is less than people think, and 3 AC is nothing to sneeze at. But from a purely functional analysis, I think Double-bladed saber is simply the best overall.
Alessia Faithhammer 7 月 27 日 下午 8:58 
after conducting my own testing; dual wield mops the floor, provided you have the right stats.

combine two swords or two light sabers and use improved or master flurry for 3 attacks that can be used multiple times. nothing quite compares. in addition to the cheekiness of master critical strike now having two hits for a good chance to inflict stun and/or critical damage.

even base form two weapon fighting with enough stats means two attacks per one attack action. it's the same economy as BG and BG 2 where he who strikes the most often, deals the most damage. more attacks = more damage potential. double bladed kinda flouts this because it's a hybrid weapon of two handed and two weapon.

the problem is: you can only modify a two handed weapon once, two sabers can be modified independently, this allows the player to compensate for two weapon fighting's inherent downside.
LΞJk0 4 月 22 日 上午 9:17 
stop the cap, if you go pure stre build, and sentinal only grabing force choke, game over.
Elbows McFighty 2024 年 12 月 30 日 下午 7:01 
because you have access to an extra attack as well as 2 more lightsaber crystals
Atlas  [作者] 2024 年 12 月 22 日 下午 7:36 
I think double bladed is just better than 2 x single bladed, whats your reasoning?
Elbows McFighty 2024 年 11 月 25 日 下午 12:32 
as stated by other comments, the major flaw here seems to be that youre only comparing dueling to a double bladed melee weapon/lightsaber, when imo it seems to be designed for 2 single bladed weapons
Master Anon 2024 年 8 月 4 日 下午 8:58 
didnt read.
U not gonna tell me u should not invest for the future into an extra attack that deals an entire weapon dmg more over +3 to attack.
princess patrol 2024 年 8 月 2 日 上午 5:23 
Interesting thoughts. Cool post.
Devs 2024 年 7 月 30 日 下午 6:29 
Early game, I would agree... Late game, however? Dual. All the way.

Why?

Check this out. You can have two lightsabers, with their own crystals.
BrackishLake 2024 年 7 月 30 日 上午 3:21 
Counterpoint, it's way cooler to duel wield