所有讨论 > Steam 论坛 > Steam Discussions > 主题详情
Neo 2019 年 11 月 14 日 上午 3:21
My thoughts on the steam library complaints (Not a troll)
So whenever I visit the steam forums now, all I see is a wall of negative posts about how much "everyone" hates the new steam. How bad the new UI lags and freezes and crashes,which is all very puzzling to me because steam works excellent for me. It's smooth, looks so much better than how it used to.

So that made me ask around, my friends and family who also use steam, I asked them if they are having problems with the new steam. They all told me no, it works just fine, no issues at all. So clearly the new steam is NOT universally broken, it's not flawed like a lot of like to make out. But it is clear there is something wrong, but only to a small LOUD VOCAL MINORITY . Which by the way, is normally the loudest group. The vast majority of people who are having no problems don't speak up, well because they are happy, they are getting on with their lives.

So that got me thinking, what could the problem be here with the people who are complaining. And I think they probably all fall into 1 of 2 categories.

The first group as follows: 1)People who have terrible computers, poor system specs with a terrible record of maintaining their system, and possibly slow internet connection.

And the second group: 2) People who do have great system specs and do actually look after their system but have a tiny underlying computer problem, ie wrong drivers or whatever it may be, who knows. The list of possible problems is almost endless.

My point is, so many people are not having issues with the new steam, ergo it is logical to conclude the problem is probably not with steam but with the vocal minority of unhappy users. If it was some critical flaw with the new steam, wouldn't everyone be experiencing the same issues?

This thread is not meant to upset you guys who are having issues, really. But I just wanted to post my thoughts and kindly ask you to stop asking for the steam to be pushed back into the past. Some people actually do like the new update.
< >
正在显示第 121 - 135 条，共 453 条留言
Start_Running 2019 年 11 月 19 日 上午 9:43 
引用自 Lystent：
I do wonder how many nonvocal people have problems.

'HAving problems' is different to 'having issues worth the trouble and time to make a post'.
I mean many people had beefs with the old UI, myself included, but they were just niggling petty annoyances that didn't particularly affect anything so were not mentioned. Heck some where annoyances I didn't even realize were annoying until they were gone.



引用自 Nooblander：
引用自 Neo：

That has not been my experience from skimming through the forums, most have been hate threads and posts demanding it all be reverted. But for those that wish to have an option to revert back just for them, i'd say more power to you. That outcome does not affect anyone else who is happy with the changes.


If this had been the response from Valve from the very beginning, it would not have led to such a large volume of complaints.
Thing about design. EVery option is a branch on a trouble-shooting tree. and in early iomplementation you kinda want to keep that tree well pruned so you can focus on the core. When you're working on a car you get the engine sorted out before you work on the interior panelling. The options may or may not come in at a later time.

Unfortunately the response from Valve was silence/denial, while using white knights to prop up the UI change and free mods to censor discourse,.
Over a decade of experience has taught them that literally nothing they say will help. EVery UI change, no matter how small, is met wiith the same level of angst. Remember what the forums looked like when they went from Green to Blue?

This in turn alienated good customers and just led to angrier users.
When progress uis made, some will aklways be left behind. Such is life.

Sorry to say this has been a textbook case of developers being blinded by science (data metrics) and forgetting tried and true principles of treating the customer right.
Which customer?
And 'RIght' by whose judgement?
WOuld you as a customer ever accept a judgement that went against your desire to be 'right'?
最后由 Start_Running 编辑于; 2019 年 11 月 19 日 上午 10:46
#121
Nooblander 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 12:49 
引用自 Start_Running：
Thing about design. EVery option is a branch on a trouble-shooting tree. and in early iomplementation you kinda want to keep that tree well pruned so you can focus on the core. When you're working on a car you get the engine sorted out before you work on the interior panelling. The options may or may not come in at a later time.

Form follows function. The previous design sought to enhance the utility of the interface for the user. The new design scuttles user preferences and gives access to developers to intrude upon the library for marketing purposes.

Over a decade of experience has taught them that literally nothing they say will help. EVery UI change, no matter how small, is met wiith the same level of angst. Remember what the forums looked like when they went from Green to Blue?

Self fulfilling prophesy perhaps? I've heard these comparisons before, but I just don't buy it. I didn't care about the previous change while this one has me seeking out other gaming platforms, and so many others have said the same thing. In any case, a long history of best practices for corporate communications shows the worst way to handle a PR crisis is exactly how Valve handled theirs. It snowballed as a result.


Which customer?

Any customer.

And 'RIght' by whose judgement?

The customer.

WOuld you as a customer ever accept a judgement that went against your desire to be 'right'?

Only when a monopoly leaves no other choice. That was the case ten years ago, but not any longer. There are countless examples of what happens to a business when they take the approach you are advocating. It doesn't usually end well.
最后由 Nooblander 编辑于; 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 12:50
#122
Start_Running 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 1:03 
引用自 Nooblander：
引用自 Start_Running：
Thing about design. EVery option is a branch on a trouble-shooting tree. and in early iomplementation you kinda want to keep that tree well pruned so you can focus on the core. When you're working on a car you get the engine sorted out before you work on the interior panelling. The options may or may not come in at a later time.

Form follows function. The previous design sought to enhance the utility of the interface for the user. The new design scuttles user preferences and gives access to developers to intrude upon the library for marketing purposes.
That depends on the one using it. II actually find the new UI an improvement. It even added a functionality that wasn't there before and thusly saves me about 3 clicks. See how that works. And how are the developers intruding on the library?

Over a decade of experience has taught them that literally nothing they say will help. EVery UI change, no matter how small, is met wiith the same level of angst. Remember what the forums looked like when they went from Green to Blue?

Self fulfilling prophesy perhaps? I've heard these comparisons before, but I just don't buy it. I didn't care about the previous change while this one has me seeking out other gaming platforms, and so many others have said the same thing.
And others said the same thing back then, and when they changed the store page, and when they changed the chat ui. Are you sensing a pattern. Once you have a large heterogenous group you will invariably dffind that any action or inaction will please some and displease others.

In any case, a long history of best practices for corporate communications shows the worst way to handle a PR crisis is exactly how Valve handled theirs. It snowballed as a result.
Actually the worst way is to to do what Blizz did with the Blitzchung thing, over react, over correct and generally put ones foot in ones mouth. Better to say nothing. And again experience has taught rthem that waiting a week or two for the furor to die down works best. Because as said this happens EVERY TIME.



Which customer?
Any customer.
Well considering I'm a customer. and I think they've treated me and other right. Sooo...hw does that work now. Customers are not some homogenous hive-mind.

And 'RIght' by whose judgement?

The customer.
And you really don't see where that logic falls apart?

WOuld you as a customer ever accept a judgement that went against your desire to be 'right'?

Only when a monopoly leaves no other choice....
So in otherwords. RIght is when circumstances benefit you, and you alone and if you are not the one receiving the maximum favourable outcome things are 'wrong'. You've kinda made the point. You've essentially said the equivalent of: 'You will never accept being in the wrong, even when you are in the wrong'

That was the case ten years ago, but not any longer. There are countless examples of what happens to a business when they take the approach you are advocating. It doesn't usually end well.
news flash. Valve has had competition since day one...They've just done a better job than their competition. There are also countless examples of businesses going under from the way you're advocating...perhaps more. One of the major causes for small businesses and start up businesses going under in the first 3-5 years is spending too much on custiomer acquisition and retention.
最后由 Start_Running 编辑于; 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 1:04
#123
Lystent 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 1:15 
引用自 Start_Running：
引用自 Lystent：
I do wonder how many nonvocal people have problems.

'HAving problems' is different to 'having issues worth the trouble and time to make a post'.
I mean many people had beefs with the old UI, myself included, but they were just niggling petty annoyances that didn't particularly affect anything so were not mentioned. Heck some where annoyances I didn't even realize were annoying until they were gone.



...
There are operational and performance problems with the new UI, especially the moment it came out. It mostly varies by the machine (rendering issues, system lag spikes).
That said, this forum are out-of-the-way for some people, if you ask me, hence my first post. Partly because of the bad rep with steam based forums in general.
#124
Start_Running 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 2:12 
引用自 Lystent：
引用自 Start_Running：

'HAving problems' is different to 'having issues worth the trouble and time to make a post'.
I mean many people had beefs with the old UI, myself included, but they were just niggling petty annoyances that didn't particularly affect anything so were not mentioned. Heck some where annoyances I didn't even realize were annoying until they were gone.



...
There are operational and performance problems with the new UI, especially the moment it came out.
For some users....gotta remember that. SInce the Release my biggest issue was actually when the 'What's New' section went MIA for about a week.

It mostly varies by the machine (rendering issues, system lag spikes).
That said, this forum are out-of-the-way for some people, if you ask me, hence my first post. Partly because of the bad rep with steam based forums in general.
It's actually a pretty nice place, but not the place to go if you want to soapbox or expect an echo chamber.

But my point stands. Having a problem and having a problem worth the trouble to post about are not the same thing. Just like there are still people who don't like the Blue COlor scheme.
#125
Lystent 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 2:20 
引用自 Start_Running：
引用自 Lystent：
There are operational and performance problems with the new UI, especially the moment it came out.
For some users....gotta remember that. SInce the Release my biggest issue was actually when the 'What's New' section went MIA for about a week.
Specifically, for some machines.
It mostly varies by the machine (rendering issues, system lag spikes).
That said, this forum are out-of-the-way for some people, if you ask me, hence my first post. Partly because of the bad rep with steam based forums in general.
It's actually a pretty nice place, but not the place to go if you want to soapbox or expect an echo chamber.
I've seen some pretty toxic things myself, but that is besides the point; the point being that there are pretty negative opinions about steam forums floating around. And that is just one reason I personally find them to be a quite potentially out-of-the-way place to be for some people.
But my point stands. Having a problem and having a problem worth the trouble to post about are not the same thing. Just like there are still people who don't like the Blue COlor scheme.
Thing is though, I'd be astonished if all the people who have operational and/or performance issues left a post in this forum.

Edit: also, AFAIK, "some" could be a small amount or even a large amount. It just doesn't mean "all".
最后由 Lystent 编辑于; 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 2:22
#126
Start_Running 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 3:10 
引用自 Lystent：
引用自 Start_Running：
For some users....gotta remember that. SInce the Release my biggest issue was actually when the 'What's New' section went MIA for about a week.
Specifically, for some machines.

It's actually a pretty nice place, but not the place to go if you want to soapbox or expect an echo chamber.
I've seen some pretty toxic things myself, but that is besides the point; the point being that there are pretty negative opinions about steam forums floating around. And that is just one reason I personally find them to be a quite potentially out-of-the-way place to be for some people.
But my point stands. Having a problem and having a problem worth the trouble to post about are not the same thing. Just like there are still people who don't like the Blue COlor scheme.
Thing is though, I'd be astonished if all the people who have operational and/or performance issues left a post in this forum.

Edit: also, AFAIK, "some" could be a small amount or even a large amount. It just doesn't mean "all".

I basically take the rule of multiplying the numbers by 100. Essentially I assume those that do pose represent 1% of the total. and even with that math it still comes down to a minority of the steam userbase.

As fopr machines.. well considering the age and make of my machine...you'd have to have a pretty crappy machine to get worse performance than me. Then again, The first thing I did was to enable low performance mode and low bandwidth modes.

I also removes all the shelves that were not important.
Though to be fair I don't keep many games installed at anyone time. No more tyhan 40
最后由 Start_Running 编辑于; 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 4:19
#127
Lystent 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 3:37 
引用自 Start_Running：
...
I basically take the rull of multiplying the numbers by 100. Essentially I assume those that do pose represent 1% of the total. and even with that math it still comes down to a minority of the steam userbase.
...
Problem is that there are not enough numbers to begin with to do this accurately, AFAIK. Without enough statistics, an assumption can be way off.
引用自 Start_Running：
...As fopr machines.. well considering the age and make of my machine...you'd have to have a pretty crappy machine to get worse performance than me.
...
I do not think that is the case entirely. Architecture of the computer plays a role too. I've seen reports of a game performing worse on a high end computer than my computer for example (game did not multithread very well). There are lots of factors to deal with when dealing with the performance of personal computer software.

#128
Start_Running 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 4:29 
引用自 Lystent：
引用自 Start_Running：
...
I basically take the rull of multiplying the numbers by 100. Essentially I assume those that do pose represent 1% of the total. and even with that math it still comes down to a minority of the steam userbase.
...
Problem is that there are not enough numbers to begin with to do this accurately, AFAIK. Without enough statistics, an assumption can be way off.
A worst case assumption is good enough where accuracy is impossible.

引用自 Start_Running：
...As fopr machines.. well considering the age and make of my machine...you'd have to have a pretty crappy machine to get worse performance than me.
...
I do not think that is the case entirely. Architecture of the computer plays a role too. I've seen reports of a game performing worse on a high end computer than my computer for example (game did not multithread very well). There are lots of factors to deal with when dealing with the performance of personal computer software.
Which boils down to the user then./ Hence why IU said, 'users' initially.

The end point is that you can't really count the words of those who say nothing and the most reasonable way to account for such silence is 'Apathy'. I.e they are silent because the changes are neither here nor there for them. Just like the change from green to blue was a non-issue for many, and just like how the CHat UI changes were for many.

Look back through every change ever made to the UI and you'll find the same jkind of forum flare ups for 2-4 weeks and then the world ciontinues on.
最后由 Start_Running 编辑于; 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 4:32
#129
Lystent 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 4:46 
A worst case assumption doesn't make it less possible that a large amount of people have bad problems (like ingame lag, UI showing up as black boxes, newly introduced CTDs) and haven't reported them on this forum. Also, I highly doubt apathy accounts for all of the silence.
#130
Start_Running 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 5:30 
引用自 Lystent：
A worst case assumption doesn't make it less possible that a large amount of people have bad problems (like ingame lag, UI showing up as black boxes, newly introduced CTDs) and haven't reported them on this forum. Also, I highly doubt apathy accounts for all of the silence.
SO you think if people were experiencing all those problems they'd just be silent about it? From my own experience with the forums I would say, unlikely. This is a user base that will complain about any and everything like it was the end of the world... like when they added curators... or the review bombing protection, O when they added the graph to the review section...

Apathy is the more reasonable assumption here since it basically means you can't count them one way or the other. The silence could equally be people who are happy wityh the change, as people being apathetic, or people being displeased.

Lets take it from another stand point. A video game review. Only a small minority of people who buy and play a game ever review it. So do you count the people who haven't left a review as people who like the game? people who hate the game? or people who haven't even platyed the game yet because it is burried a hundred games down in their backlog (meaning you don't)?

Do you generally hold the review score to be a fair indicator of public consensus?
As in do you assume a game that scores mostly positive is fair to decent, and a game that's negative to be best avoided? Bty your logic every mostly positive game could just have legiopns of people who hate the game but haven'rt bothered to review it. And a Negative gam,e could have tghrongs of dfans who believe its the best game evar buty they just don't like writing reviews.

Or do you just consider the reviewing population and keep the total userbase in the back of tyour head?
最后由 Start_Running 编辑于; 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 5:31
#131
Lystent 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 5:41 
People can silently stop using steam AFAIK.

Edit: They can also silently buy less software from steam.

Also, what you see on the forums or in the reviews are the not so silent people. People who are not opposed to dealing with other people in an online situation where people are often only know by their profiles and what they type.

Finally, I stopped taking the review system seriously when developer politics became a heavy factor.
最后由 Lystent 编辑于; 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 6:01
#132
Start_Running 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 6:43 
引用自 Lystent：
People can silently stop using steam AFAIK.

Edit: They can also silently buy less software from steam.
Easier to say stop. Stating Less means you have to be able to reliably prove they were going to buy more and weren't just say in a dry spell due to lack of funds or lack of games for their interest. And they can silently stop using steam, but everyon stops using styyeam... until they start using it again. See why counting the silent as anything but apathetic causes issues? There are a hundred and one ways to interpret it, most of which can be against any given side.

Also, what you see on the forums or in the reviews are the not so silent people. People who are not opposed to dealing with other people in an online situation where people are often only know by their profiles and what they type.
Have you noticed you keep trying to count the silent majority in one column?

Finally, I stopped taking the review system seriously when developer politics became a heavy factor.
Most reviewers (shockingly) ignore developer politics. Its why review bombers only make up a minority of reviews in total.
#133
꧁StiGGe꧂ 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 7:10 
I think im the only one that loves the new design.

Its so good to be able to make collections and sort games by genre. This function the whole forum wanted for so many years.

I dont know if its steam fault but, my PC was very laggy and slow when the update came.

Now its better.

#134
Lystent 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 9:00 
引用自 Start_Running：
引用自 Lystent：
People can silently stop using steam AFAIK.

Edit: They can also silently buy less software from steam.
Easier to say stop. Stating Less means you have to be able to reliably prove they were going to buy more and weren't just say in a dry spell due to lack of funds or lack of games for their interest. And they can silently stop using steam, but everyon stops using styyeam... until they start using it again. See why counting the silent as anything but apathetic causes issues? There are a hundred and one ways to interpret it, most of which can be against any given side.
Apathy is ignoring the issue. Being vocal on the forum is not the only way to give attention to a problematic game launcher.
Also, what you see on the forums or in the reviews are the not so silent people. People who are not opposed to dealing with other people in an online situation where people are often only know by their profiles and what they type.
Have you noticed you keep trying to count the silent majority in one column?
I'd be astonished if the silent majority is all one-sided. All I know is that they are called silent with reason, and it is because of their silence that we can not be sure of their position in the matter. Thus my first post here.
Finally, I stopped taking the review system seriously when developer politics became a heavy factor.
Most reviewers (shockingly) ignore developer politics. Its why review bombers only make up a minority of reviews in total.
Most is not enough for me. It takes a hard-to-determine percentage of the overall ratings.

Edit: Also worth mentioning that I can see apathy being a thing for people of all sides of the matter.
最后由 Lystent 编辑于; 2019 年 11 月 19 日 下午 9:25
#135
< >
正在显示第 121 - 135 条，共 453 条留言
每页显示数： 1530 50

所有讨论 > Steam 论坛 > Steam Discussions > 主题详情
发帖日期： 2019 年 11 月 14 日 上午 3:21
回复数： 452
发起新讨论

讨论规则及指引