无尽帝国 2 ENDLESS™ Legend 2

无尽帝国 2 ENDLESS™ Legend 2

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Knight 10 月 23 日 上午 5:15
flanking defense penalty?
"Units start losing defense when multiple enemy units are adjacent to them (Starting with 3 adjacent enemy units). This debuff will go progressively from 3 enemies (-25% defense) to 6 (-100% defense).

If you unit does not have an armor, do not worry, there won´t be any penalty"

Isn't 100% armor penalty a bit steep? Wouldn't it make sense to have the armor penalty increment every time someone strikes your unit?
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bork9128 10 月 23 日 上午 5:33 
I mean 100% is only if you literally have one unit surrounded on all sides by your own

You are much more likely to get the 3 and 4 units debuff with the 5 and 6 ones mostly there for if you have one highly tanky hero so it can't solo entire armies.
Knight 10 月 23 日 上午 5:38 
引用自 bork9128
I mean 100% is only if you literally have one unit surrounded on all sides by your own

You are much more likely to get the 3 and 4 units debuff with the 5 and 6 ones mostly there for if you have one highly tanky hero so it can't solo entire armies.
This also won't lead to combat on all sides, If I invest in a defensive hero I'll keep him on the side of the arena so the stupid ai can't change my defensive penalty.

If I'm up against a human player it'll lead to awkward battle situations where we won't approach each other.

These kinds of tactics are silly and nonsensical.
最后由 Knight 编辑于; 10 月 23 日 上午 6:20
bork9128 10 月 23 日 上午 6:25 
I mean if you want to play inefficiently to avoid what will be a slight defense penalty most of the time that's fine .

Realistically the only time you are getting anything more then the 3 person debuff of 25% is if you are at an army size disadvantage (such as when you are already losing) or if you are actively spreading your own units all over the place isolating them (such as if you try to rush back line unit).
最后由 bork9128 编辑于; 10 月 23 日 上午 6:26
Knight 10 月 23 日 上午 6:46 
引用自 bork9128
I mean if you want to play inefficiently to avoid what will be a slight defense penalty most of the time that's fine .

Realistically the only time you are getting anything more then the 3 person debuff of 25% is if you are at an army size disadvantage (such as when you are already losing) or if you are actively spreading your own units all over the place isolating them (such as if you try to rush back line unit).
How would it be inefficient?

Like at all?

I know the ai will stupidly rush me... so why wouldn't I stack a defensive unit to the tail end of the map?

Like if I got a single hero unit and all i have to do to keep him invincible is have him in the corner, why wouldn't i do this?
Daarkarr0w  [开发者] 10 月 24 日 上午 3:37 
I do understand from where you are coming from, but in a regular situation, even with a defensive hero, you should have between 3 or 4 enemies (which is -25%/-50%), which is fair, but that is my personal point of view.

The main situation in which you could be surrounded for 5/6 is when you teleport in the middle of the enemy army and I see this a way to make player think if that is a "ok" situation or if they need to planify accordingly.

Also, this is a 2 way situation, as also applies to the AI when trying to rushing into the middle of your army to attack the ranger units.
Knight 10 月 24 日 下午 3:25 
引用自 Daarkarr0w
I do understand from where you are coming from, but in a regular situation, even with a defensive hero, you should have between 3 or 4 enemies (which is -25%/-50%), which is fair, but that is my personal point of view.

The main situation in which you could be surrounded for 5/6 is when you teleport in the middle of the enemy army and I see this a way to make player think if that is a "ok" situation or if they need to planify accordingly.

Also, this is a 2 way situation, as also applies to the AI when trying to rushing into the middle of your army to attack the ranger units.
It's good to see a dev respond and all, but how is this the solution? Punish defensive builds with a 25% penalty in normal situations and 100% if they don't huddle up in a corner?

All I'm saying is that as a human I'm going to find the flaw in this the moment I understand the rules.

My personal suggestion would be to do what Eador, AoW, Civ and a bunch of other strategy games did to fix this by offering things like skills to break through a units defenses or by making it so if a unit has been attacked enough times their defenses decrease. I do agree there should be a flanking bonus but 100% armor pen seems way too high, the established maximum should be a bit lower and the remaining armor penalty should come from other sources.


The solution that exists right now is something I can freely gimp by huddling in a corner of the map knowing the ai isn't smart enough to know not to attack someone with too high a defense with a unit too weak.

It's a band-aide to the problem of a heavily armored unit jumping into the middle of the fight, but that kinda is what a tank's role is supposed to be: to be the primary target. The map for combat is usually too small for me to direct my units to rush to the side of the enemy over a hill, so it ends up not much different from me either warping defensive heroes behind my enemies to pick off archers or just sending them to the backline when they're injured. Now it's pretty much just chill in a corner, which I don't think was the intended solution.
Kingasunder 10 月 24 日 下午 8:08 
引用自 Daarkarr0w
I do understand from where you are coming from, but in a regular situation, even with a defensive hero, you should have between 3 or 4 enemies (which is -25%/-50%), which is fair, but that is my personal point of view.

My only personal problem with the encirclement changes is that it is a effective nerf to the Unceasing hunger Necrophage battle trait. They both reward similar things and the armor penalties are much less effective with a percentile decrease being applied after. If an enemy is surrounded by 4 units, then Debuff effectively halved. A unit with 30 armor, halved is 15. One with 30, reduced by 5 to 25, and then halved is 12.5. This is the way it is done in game and makes the already situational Ability even worse. I would feel way better if their trait got some changes, either a complete rework, or some kind of buff. Even something as simple as applying after encirclement instead of before.
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